New builder looking to learn

[Mike Brooks]

I'll bet a samich it won't be long before Kibler offers carving as well, all done by CNC. It's the future boys.

[gusd]

Mike, It's already been done  in the sign business!!
Gus

[Kingsburyarms]

First, I would like to thank the Site ADMIN’S In keeping this thread alive as it is part of gun building, and it brings up a great conversational piece. Also, the young man that started this conversation did request the best way to get into the business of taking a side of a hobby that he loves so much and making a career.

I hold (and still do) the long-held belief that "follow your passion" is good advice.  Not only is the cliche flawed that preexisting passions being rare and have little to do with how most people end up loving their work-but it can also lead to an interesting life (I started with flying Helicopters and now I babysit a few hundred software developers in a $100 M company).

Matching your job to a preexisting (or current) passion does not matter. Passion comes after you put in the hard work to become excellent at something valuable, not before. In other words, what you do for a living is much less important than how you do it.

With Jim’s rifles, ANY way of getting someone into the hobby/sport/profession, then starting them on a path to achieve excellence and success, is a great thing. That’s the way I started, and it’s working, I’m building from blanks now, and increasing my skills and passion for the history. Some on this site have mentored me, shown better ways of building, and have shot what I have built. I would have never started unless there was a clear path to entry, and Jim is providing that.

The world is not falling apart with quality CNC kits entering the market, the use of computers (like this fantastic forum) or the generations that use them, the world is expanding into inquiring minds (like the first post on this thread), an awareness of the history and the skill it does take to “Master” this craft.

I for one, love the mix of technology and history, and if we embrace both, and learn from the past BY repeating it over and over, then custom built, recreations, restorations and contemporary flintlocks will not fall by the wayside.

Jon

[Martin S.]

When I was in college, I bought CVA kits, because I could not afford a custom rifle.

CVA is long gone, but Jim's kits fill that void, only they are light years more advanced in quality.  Well done, Jim!!!

I have finally reached the career point where I can now afford a custom rifle, or two, or as many as I can sneak past my wife, and I have a few on order.

One rifle maker, well known by this board, told me 3 years wait.  Fine, order placed.  Quality takes time, and the man makes a fine gun.

Another told me 18 months, and is now at about the 2.5 year mark, says the rifle will ship "soon".  I am sure the wait will be worth it.

A third told me 18 months, and we will see how that turns out.

I am willing to wait for a quality, custom rifle.  I just need to space them out a little, so my wife does not catch on.

I am ready to buy one of Jim's kits as soon as he offers the Colonial kit with set triggers.

Also, if he were to offer a Hawken style or plains rifle in full stock with a flintlock, and set triggers, I would order one of those as well.

My point is, some can afford to spend $2000-$3000+ for a custom gun, and there are enough that the well known gunsmiths of this board have several years back log.

Some cannot, and that is where Jim's kits come into play.

I will buy one of Jim's kits, because I enjoy the build process, but I am not good enough to make one from a blank, and won't have time to learn until I retire.

Jim fills a place in the market, so do custom makers.  I think there is room for both.

Also, regarding hand work, there is a resurgence in woodworkers using hand tools.  If you don't believe me, check out the Lie-Nielsen website, or the Lost Art Press Blog.

CNC is changing woodworking, but there will always be the die hards like me that can use a hand plane and prefer to hand cut their dovetails.

I don't plan to sell any of my custom muzzleloaders.  My children will inherit them, and before I die, I will make sure they are proficient in their use.

My son already is fully proficient, and I will make sure my daughter is as well.

I hope I will one day have grandchildren, and I will teach them muzzleloading as well.

[WKevinD]

Building muzzleloaders for profit reminds me of some advise I heard about farming.
"if you want to make a little bit of money farming; start out with a whole lot of money, work your butt of and if your lucky and talented you might make a little bit of money."
Ya gotta love what your doing.

Kevin

[Craig Wilcox]

Listening to all of you, I consider myself fortunate.  The GI Bill, as with Tracker, got me a BS in Biology, and most of the way to my Masters.  AND it got me a Commercial pilot's licens
But decent biology jobs come about less frequent than blue moons!  So, I did whatever job would put food on the table and a roof over our heads.  Boat builder and rigger of sailing vessels.  Cabinet maker.  Park Ranger, then a law enforcement job.  Sports reporter for a middle size newspaper.  Also built a heck of a lot of sports-racing cars, and nine different aircraft.  All that got me used to working with my hands, and working to a plan set down by others.
And finally, got a GREAT job as a biologist.  Worked all the way from northern Virginia to southern Brazil, and a bunch of countries and places in between.
But always messing with guns.  Building them, fixing them, cleaning and shooting them.
So when I had to take a medical retirement in '08, I moved to the small town in Oklahoma where my dad grew up - and opened a gun shop!  Health went even farther south, and this past year my kids dragged me off to north central Ohio.  I can't call it "ungodly" Ohio, cause a lot of my new friends are Amish.
No place and no capital to open a new gun shop
So, I have decided to build a flintlock long rifle.  Had plenty of BP experience, but all more modern stuff.  Heck, my first rifle, when we lived outside of D.C. was an original 1861 Springfield .58 cal.  Loved it, and went to a lot of shoots and reenactments.  But nothing at all when it came to flintlocks.  So, got a lot of learning to do with this Herman Rupp flintlock!
But the point is - for young Tracker - is to do whatever it takes to get you through life, and keep the firearms work going the whole time.  Do marry a women who loves guns!!  And enjoy yourself each and every day.

[Tracker0721]

Haha these topics crack me up! A younger generation just asking about tips how to carry on the torch and the response is “don’t try, go to flooded tech field” “find something that makes more money”. I would’ve become a lawyer or doctor if I wanted money! But that’s not what I’m passion about. I’d hate myself doing that. This myth that with a college education in a high paying field you’ll get a good job and be set is bologna. My buddy has a double bachelors in physics and astronomy so he could be an astrophysicist- his last job he applied to was for an intern position and over 500 people applied. He’s now training dogs and looking Australia and other desert observatories. You guys are the ones with the skills that lived the life we young bucks want, why would you push us away rather than try to help us carry on? I scored extremely high in school testing, got scholarships offered, a year later I was in Afghanistan. After that I was in a lumber mill stacking boards, than fighting wildfires, now driving truck. I’ve literally been around the world and had jobs that pay really well and been homeless and jobless in 6 years. Throw some venison in that rice and I’ll happily sit in my shop sanding a barrel or checkering a stock. It’s what makes me happy and I’m good at it. I see no reason to take a job just to make more money when I’m unhappy working it.

Thank you to the gent for the builders name in Englewood! Thank you to everyone else for your thoughts as well but to everyone reading this wanting to make a career out of a dying art, do it. If you fail in 5 years then you fail, but you can’t wait till you’re 60 and wonder how life would’ve gone if you hadn’t followed a passion.

Also I should add, I don’t plan to make a career on only muzzleloaders. Just gunsmithing and a specialty with the old wood and metal single shots and such as is common in Europe style. It’d be nice to learn the ways of building a muzzleloader though because that’s top of the wood to metal beauty. Again, I hope I didn’t offend anyone, just a kid getting tired of hearing how money should dictate my life.

Dylan

[n stephenson]

Dylan, I really don`t think that anyone is trying to intentionally rain on your parade . I`m all for people learning gunbuilding!! I just think it is only right , to let them know what they are actually up against.  I too ,had many jobs over the years. I had machinist training in high school before joining the Marines. After I returned home I worked in a Tire mold shop , then in an aluminum  die casting plant as a die maker. I later worked on plastic injection molds , until the plant went to China. I built rifles the whole time , after building my first at age 14. When all the industry around here dried up , I helped my cousin , with his moving business. I have been building "full time" for about 18 years now. I don`t make half what I made 20 years ago . Just plain fact!! I don`t have a wife and kids , so that helps !  Money wont make you happy, but you can be miserable in a nicer neighborhood!!!      In the long run , it is your choice to live your life as you please!! Your the one that has to pay the price. None of this is meant to discourage , just to inform!! I will do anything within my power to help people learn how to build rifles!!   Nate

[Mike Brooks]

How about opening a buggy whip factory as well? Do what you want, I did even though everybody told me not to. Don Getz was horrified 22 years ago when I told him I was going to go full time. I made it, it wasn't easy and I haven't made a lot of money and now my body is all broke down due to the daily abuse. On the other hand, A. Martin talked to me about going full time years ago and I encouraged him to do it. His skills were easily recognized as superior, I knew he would make it....and he did.

[Tracker0721]

Slightly off topic but you mentioned buggies Mr. Brooks, we just helped unload a pair of custom sleighs to be pulled by horse, they were 10 grand a piece! And the little “accessory” package was close to 2500. People make too much money these days. Hahaha

No, I do appreciate no one trying to play it off as easy and making it seem like the best gig ever, it’s upsetting to hear everyone no matter the forum- bows, guns, ML, etc- say there’s no point in pursuing the career anymore. The gunsmithing forums are full of older smiths saying don’t even attempt the trade and just buy new guns.

The help and advice given here in regard to building muzzleloaders is above and beyond amazing! Really a superb resource. Thank you all!

[Clark Badgett]

I've read a lot of responses here, even put one up myself. I've not seen anyone recommend to not pursue a career. In fact most have advised to find a good viable skill set, a trade with intrinsic value, considering there are millions of good paying jobs available to those willing to work. The kind that will keep a roof over your head, food on your table and allow you the left over money to buy the expensive parts that you need to follow your passion.

[Mike Brooks]

just got a package in from Brownells yesterday.  Inside was an add from some gunsmithing school out east looking for a gunsmith teacher to teach all the up and coming new gunsmiths. Something about "large number" of new 'smiths needing instruction.......what do I know.....

[n stephenson]

just got a package in from Brownells yesterday.  Inside was an add from some gunsmithing school out east looking for a gunsmith teacher to teach all the up and coming new gunsmiths. Something about "large number" of new 'smiths needing instruction.......what do I know.....

Hey Mike! Retire early , and go teach them young`uns !! Easier on the shoulders , harder on the mind!!!

[Mike Brooks]

just got a package in from Brownells yesterday.  Inside was an add from some gunsmithing school out east looking for a gunsmith teacher to teach all the up and coming new gunsmiths. Something about "large number" of new 'smiths needing instruction.......what do I know.....

Hey Mike! Retire early , and go teach them young`uns !! Easier on the shoulders , harder on the mind!!!

I wouldn't know which end is which on a modern gun. Besides, I don't like kids and when I retire i'm going fishin' and that's it!

[smallpatch]

I'm with you Mike.... Hey kid, get off my lawn!

[Sawfiler]

Awesome logic. Great way to teach the up and coming. Nobody ever questions why today’s generation is how they are - it’s because yesterday’s generation taught us to be this way. Kid get off my lawn transforms into never learn any of the skills I hold dear. I hope I never suffer this old man syndrome...

[Mike Brooks]

Awesome logic. Great way to teach the up and coming.

!@*%&@ straight...I'll hate anybody who gets in the way of me hatin' somebody.
 Kids....it's all "feed me, furnish a roof over my head, buy me clothes, haul me all over the place, buy me all the junk I just gotta have". Then after you do all of that for about 15 years they hate your guts and tell you you're a bad parent. We need to go back to the old days when you could give a kid a good thrashing when ever they get out of line. Nothing like some good physical violence to keep a youngster on the straight and narrow.
 I was a kid once...of course I was perfect, not like other kids.

[Elnathan]

This myth that with a college education in a high paying field you’ll get a good job and be set is bologna.

This is true.

[Mike Brooks]

This myth that with a college education in a high paying field you’ll get a good job and be set is bologna.

This is true.

Worked for my brother. You have to pick the correct field at the correct time of course, can't be stupid about it. Of course this was 35 years ago and he hit the tech wave just right. These days I'm not sure a college degree in anything is worth the money they're asking for it. When I grow up I'm going into 3rd world labor..... Oh wait, I build muzzleloaders, I'm already there!

[Jim Kibler]

No myth... You just have to pick what's in demand. 

[n stephenson]

My first choice of occupation was, to be a piano player , in a baudy house in New Orleans!! 

[little joe]

 Marry a gal with a good job and fine insurance plan.

[Iktomi]

No myth... You just have to pick what's in demand.

 Absolutely true. I worked as a timber faller and huge tree removal specialist. If you had a 275 ft. redwood hanging over a 5 million dollar house, my partner and I were the guys you called to have it taken out. It was great when I was young, working outdoors and out in the woods every day. Money could be really good, though inconsistent. It was exceedingly dangerous work though, and every year someone I knew, or knew of, in the business would get killed or permanently disabled. Once I hit my mid-30's, I had a nagging awareness that the law of averages had a good chance of falling on my own head. Insurance requirements were a serendipitous thing that segued me into the field I am in now. They required that at least one person on our crew be First Aid/CPR certified, so I went and took the required course. I found out that this medical stuff intrigued me, and that I had a knack for it. That led to me taking other courses, eventually becoming a paramedic and then an RN. I love my work, and the gravy is that it has given me a level of security that I possibly wouldn't have had if I remained in my former trade. You never know what rabbit hole life will lead you down.

[Mike Brooks]

You never know what rabbit hole life will lead you down.

True dat!

[smallpatch]

Ok,
Now that we've all had our rant, insults, and general disparaging comments.
Here's what I think.
There are very few that can make a living at this.  Those few are special!!  Allen Martin is one, Mark Wheland another.  I won't try to complete this list.These guys aren't just good.  AND they don't produce $2000 guns.  They also didn't get there overnight.
I do this because I love it, not because I'm good at it.  I sell just enough to build another, and keep myself in powder.
I could NEVER make a living doing this.  I'm a master electrician by trade, and made a good living doing it.
I would much rather have spent my life building guns, instead of digging ditches, bending pipe, and pulling wire. But instead it's my hobby/addiction/time killer/etc.  I'll continue as long as I am able.
I think most of the negative comments come from similar circumstances.
Surely the frustration can turn one into a curmudgeon.  But we still love it.......as long as you stay off my lawn!!!    KIDDING!