Author Topic: Realistic expectations for accuracy.  (Read 8751 times)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2018, 02:53:49 AM »
How do chunk guns get great accuracy resting out front?
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Offline okawbow

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2018, 03:50:44 AM »
I found a “sweet spot” on my 54” barreled chunk gun, about 7” back from the muzzle. A second “sweet spot” is just forward of the entry thimble, and groups as well, but is harder to hold still because it is the balance point.

My new table rifle also likes to rest about 4” back from the Muzzle.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

m1garand_man

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2018, 05:32:56 AM »
Why didn't they put rear sights closer to the breech in the 1700's? It seems this would help a lot.

Also, I'll shoot off the forestock behind the entry pipe next range trip, which because of prior commitments won't be for two more weeks.  :-[

I have looked at ballistics at 100y. They are fairly dismal. Therefore accuracy to ensure excellent shot place mentioned is key. Even this newby knows that.

Finally the thing I'd have difficulty doing in the stand is doing a muzzle rest. I know that was how a lot of shooting was done back in the day, esspecially when shooting prone.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2018, 08:10:07 AM »
Keep your shots at ranges that you are confident you can make a perfect shot.
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Offline alacran

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM »
It is great to know what your rifle can do at the range off the bench at a 100 yards. However all that goes out the window when in a hunting situation. If you are hunting spot and stalk. You maybe a few miles from where you spotted an animal to where you actually get a shot. Adrenalin, physical conditioning.  light ,temperature elevation etc. might be radically different than what you have practiced.  You have to adjust accordingly. Get as possible to the game.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2018, 02:19:38 PM »
It is great to know what your rifle can do at the range off the bench at a 100 yards. However all that goes out the window when in a hunting situation. If you are hunting spot and stalk. You maybe a few miles from where you spotted an animal to where you actually get a shot. Adrenalin, physical conditioning.  light ,temperature elevation etc. might be radically different than what you have practiced.  You have to adjust accordingly. Get as possible to the game.

True but you are certainly more apt to hit what you are aiming at with a 2 MOA rifle than with a 6 MOA rifle.
Dennis
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 02:21:20 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2018, 07:02:53 PM »
Yes Dennis.  Too many times, I've heard guys say, "that's good enough for hunting!"  In my opinion, only the very most accurate load and rifle is adequate for hunting.  The hunter will introduce enough detractants without having to start with an inadequate load and/or rifle.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2018, 07:27:23 PM »
How do chunk guns get great accuracy resting out front?

okawbow - noted this in his post.  You can change wave and/or vibration 'accuracy nodes' by changing powder charges and patch material.
If you want to rest your gun on it's nose, you can develop a load that makes it shoot best there.
I rest my guns as I hold them when shooting as most of my shooting is offhand, I rest the back of my holding hand on the bag. I find this shoots
OK for me. I developed my loads with this holding method.
I tried, with the .40, .45 and .32, resting the gun on the bag out near the muzzle and found a sweet spot for the .45 GM barrel at the 2nd entry pipe(from the muzzle.
My .40 did not like resting out there with my 'accuracy' load so I never tested it there again.
The little .32 didn't seem to care how it was rested.   I was distressed, though with it's inferior overall accuracy as I could not shoot tighter than an inch or 1 1/2" at 50yards with
the .32, rested in any position, when my other two rifles were giving me 1/2" to 3/4".
Now, it appears that 1" to 1 1/2" is the best I can do at 50yards with open sights. The testing on Friday with the re-worked .60 Hawken proved that.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2018, 07:35:38 PM »
LOL,Taylor,I have heard that very thing and more than once."Good enough for hunting",and after seeing the target,really?maybe if the vitals was beachball sized.Quess some folks good enough is different than others I suppose.Respect for the animal,sport,pride should kick in somewhere here...... ???

Offline Sharpsman

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2018, 08:50:20 PM »
The two top shots were when I was finding out just how much of the front sight not to hold shooting 100 yards with my Tom Watson .50 flintlock. After a slight adjustment they went where intended and it does this quite often for me. The 10 ring is 2" diameter.

100yd by Sharps Man, on Flickr
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 07:16:27 PM by Sharpsman »
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2018, 01:03:00 AM »
The sights on longrifles are, well, primitive.  That's a disadvantage right then and there.  Like many here on the forum, eyesight is the real problem and primitive sights only compound the problem.  I know, however, that I can kill a deer at 100+ yards because I have done it more than once.  But I still try to get much closer than that.  I can consistently get only maybe 5 shots on a paper plate at 100 yds with rare excursions into the 3"-4" territory.  So that represents a maximum distance for me and one I rarely ever encounter.  The more accurate, the better; but everyone has to determine their maximum accuracy.
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Offline stubshaft

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2018, 02:38:35 AM »
There is hope for aging eyes.  You can buy a Merit Disc and attach it to your glasses or get a Knobloch setup.  Either one when adjusted properly lets you see the front and rear sights plus the target clearly.
I'd rather die standing, than live on my knees...

Offline Daryl

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2018, 06:02:39 AM »
The more accurate, the better; but everyone has to determine their maximum accuracy.

Ab resolutely Hanshi- spot-on.  I will add, perhaps without solid justification, that we, as we age should test ourselves more often than we currently do. A 9" pie plate FROM hunting positions, not bench, might be the arbitrate!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2018, 07:06:41 AM »
The sights on longrifles are, well, primitive.  That's a disadvantage right then and there.  Like many here on the forum, eyesight is the real problem and primitive sights only compound the problem.  I know, however, that I can kill a deer at 100+ yards because I have done it more than once.  But I still try to get much closer than that.  I can consistently get only maybe 5 shots on a paper plate at 100 yds with rare excursions into the 3"-4" territory.  So that represents a maximum distance for me and one I rarely ever encounter.  The more accurate, the better; but everyone has to determine their maximum accuracy.

There was an original longrifle in the Dixon collection that was both interesting and funny.  You could see where the owner had moved the rear sight forward on the barrel twice.  Little plates filling in the vacated slots.

Bill K.

Offline alacran

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2018, 02:54:05 PM »
I agree that you want the utmost accuracy in a rifle for hunting. But you can beat yourself trying to shoot 2" groups at a 100 yds. My hunting rifles I sight in at 50 yds. off of cross sticks. after  I can shoot a cloverleaf at 50yds, do I bother to see what it will do at a hundred. Using a target that you I can see at a hundred. Usually a 7 ring black.
My hunting rifles have open Iron sights and I use patched round ball.
My 54 Hawken can shoot 4 inch groups at a 100 yds, off of cross sticks. Can I do that every time? It depends on a lot of variables. Where I live wind is the biggest factor.  Not just the strength of the wind but its variability. Am I not going to go hunting because I can't always shoot a 4" group at a 100 yds? Nonsense.

85 yds offhand heartshot
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2018, 08:13:20 PM »
What is that wild beast?

I mean the one holding the Hawken!
In His grip,

Dane

Offline little joe

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2018, 11:07:01 PM »
Alacran I,m straning my feeble eyes and do I see a tire track on the shoulder. I know the beast was taken some where in the west but here in the east squirrel hunting can be very dangerous as they are NUT collectors. Pucker up and go for it.  Good shooting and nice elk.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2018, 11:29:29 PM »
Alacran,I don't think anybody's telling folks to not go hunting because they can't put decent groups together at a hundred yards.Its more of a case of knowing ones limitations.I passed up shots for one reason or another,rather not take a chance wounding game and not being able to recover it.On the flip side,just because you can put good groups together at a hundred yards from a bench give you a green light to do it afield.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2018, 11:58:07 PM »
Handicapping oneself isn't the answer, of course.  Here in the SE I'd estimate my average shot at around 20 to 30 yards max.  The long shot kills I've made were in a hay field and I was sitting in a chair with a big round hay bale for a rest.  I don't take offhand shots nor do I take long shots unless the above conditions are available.  It's just too easy to drop into a kneeling position or use a tree for support.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

m1garand_man

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2018, 02:09:52 PM »
As usual I shot again this weekend but tried some new things. First of all I rested off the rifle behind the entry pipe, I shot at 25y, I tested different patch thicknesses and powder charges again, and the most significant thing for me, I tried out some 1.5f Swiss I just bought.

I will say the Swiss measures much more consistently than the Olde Eynesford. With OE if I threw my charges from my measure on the scale they varied by as much as 2gr plus or minus! The Swiss would vary by .1 at most.

I will say it takes a little longer to clean Swiss out of my barrel but that wasn't a significant issue for me.

I tried 9 different combos of ball, patch and charge. I found that 60gr of 1.5f Swiss, .495 ball and .020 patch shoot best. A 70gr charge isn't bad but at 80gr things start opening up. Also no matter what was going on anything tried with 2f OE performed worse than the same test with Swiss. So I guess the OE will end up sitting around now as a fall back.

My best grout came with 60gr 1.5f Swiss .495 ball and .020 patch. At 25y it was a 1" group with the best 4 out of 5 in that group. I pulled one to the left.

80gr of OE with the same ball and patch was twice as large, 60gr of OE wasn't much better. The most telling part was the vertical stringing which indicates to me that there were velocity inconsistencies.


Ill have to attach photos later because I'm having problems right now doing it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 03:46:13 PM by m1garand_man »

Offline alacran

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2018, 03:09:10 PM »
I have passed up lots of closer shots than the one on that elk for a variety of reasons. Too much brush bad angle too much glare on my sights. Typically I take a knee if conditions allow me to see the animal.  Sometimes an offhand shot at an unsuspecting animal is the best shot to take.
 I spend  hours glassing and walking, and miles of tracking.
So I wear a large day pack with lots of water, food and miscellaneous.  It only weighs 17 lbs. when full of water. I do practice from time to time with my pack on. It is important to know how it will affect the way the rifle fits when wearing it. Most of my shots at elk have been under 50 yds.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Daryl

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2018, 06:03:58 PM »
 m1garand_man - For me, it is quite difficult to tell what is going on at 25 yards.  I find shooting at 40 or 50 yards is much better.

Something I tried with my smoothbore, was mounting a new rear sight from Track, onto the top barrel flat.  Thin CA sticks it there quite well, and a bump with

the short starter ball, knocked it off when I wanted to remove it. Using a knife blade as a chisel or more accurately, a draw knife, removed the thin skin of hardened glue

without damaging the surface of the barrel.

The reason I bring this up, is a peep sight or rear aperture made from a small piece of bent 1/16" thick steel could easily be 'glued' to the breech end of the barrel or top

fore part of the tang, just behind the plug.

This would give a clearer, more accurate sight picture.

I intend to do this when I finally get around to testing out my 'new' .50 rifle on paper.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Sharpsman

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2018, 07:19:56 PM »
At this stage of my life it doesn't make much difference....as long as we're having fun!! ;D ;D
"There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"

timM

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2018, 07:36:50 PM »
My $0.02
Regardless of what a weapons capable of or the load chain, IMO it all starts with a shooter knowing of and using good bench technique.  Observing shooters on the bench at my range over the years many fail at having the ability to reasonably extract the guns capability.  Anybody who has any doubts about that process, maybe it's time to reaffirm what you think you know regarding bench technique?

I think a shot sequence in an intelligent path. Put together the 1, 2, 3, 4's...before letting the shot go. I use one every day in archery practice and believe me it makes a difference.  Once the human errors are minimized then you can effect mechanical changes for the better. 

Couple of my favorite basics:

Setup as low to the bench as reasonable.
Get off the gun! Get behind it not on it.
Bag the toe of the stock and squeeze the bag to get height needed.
When you know your sights are perfectly on target close your eyes for a moment then come back to your sights to see if they retained perfect placement. If so your set up is good.
Final check to ensure the gun isn't canted.  Front sight straight up and down
Get in FRONT of the trigger and pull STRAIGHT back. 

Reading this thread, I feel my post is preaching to the choir, I decern a lot of experienced good shooters.  Just wanted to try to add my thoughts on a topic that is near and dear to me.  Respectfully, tim

Offline Longknife

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Re: Realistic expectations for accuracy.
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2018, 07:41:28 PM »
Its pretty easy to get a good group at 100 yards from a rest when shooting at  an orange or white bull but a deer's vitals don't have that bright spot on them. Once you get it sighted in try shooting at a full size deer target, placed in a the woods,, make it a real hunting situation, rest on a tree, shoot from a stand, do twenty jumping jacks, pick up your gun and shoot,,,, A deer at 100 yards looks pretty small sitting on top of your front sight!!!!...Ed
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 07:56:14 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg