Author Topic: Precarve, this might be a lost cause  (Read 4798 times)

Offline Eric Krewson

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Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« on: May 04, 2018, 04:15:55 PM »
I picked up a "deal" on a precarve kit, just about half price. I started it the other day and found out the lock inlet was cut about 1/4" too far back and 1/4" too low. I moved the barrel back enough to get a 1/4" touch hole liner in in-front of the breech plug. I inletted the lock plate as high as I could with the existing inlet so as not to have a huge gap at the bottom of the plate but I am not even close to having the pan on a barrel flat. I can drop the barrel some but even that will be iffy.

Any suggestions on a possible fix? I am thinking a new stock but this kit has one more fine piece of stock wood.

I mentioned before; "I hate precarves", unless they are Kibler, which are perfect.


« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 04:27:24 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2018, 04:32:56 PM »
bigger lock? lay out the plate on top of ones in Track's catalogue, and find one that is taller

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2018, 04:42:46 PM »
I have a track catalog and will take a look.

Offline retired fella

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 05:02:17 PM »
Wow!  If it was me, I think that I would try a patch.  Less hassle than trying to lower the barrel and less money trying to fit a bigger lock.

J.E. Moore

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2018, 05:22:26 PM »
Which style of stock is that if you don't mind me askin?

Offline sz

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2018, 05:25:45 PM »
On a pre-carved stock I doubt you could inlet the barrel that much deeper and fix that problem.  You would likely cut into the rod hole. You'd exchange one problem for another.

I build from blanks almost every time.  I do build kits when I am asked to, but that doesn't happen very often.  The last one I did was for a man that sent a Chambers kit to me about 7 years ago.
 
But I have learned  in the past 35 years of building that the most expensive kits often make for the lest expensive guns.  The best kits have the fewest problems to fix, before you can build a nice gun.
Some kit guns can be made "ok at best" and nothing you can do will turn them into a high class gun.

Because I build for a living, I fit the guns I make to the customers that order them.  Length of pull, drop at comb, heel, and cast off are all "standard" from me when a customer orders.  So that is the reason I seldom build a kit.

 The best kits are quite good, but just do not allow much custom fitting.  But that is not to say you can't make a great gun from a kit.  You sure can, but you need to start with a good kit.

Such "deals" are usually end up costing the most to build, sometimes in cash and always in time.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2018, 05:28:32 PM »
I'd move the barrel down.  That may mess up the relationship to the ramrod channel.  At that point I cut it up into firewood. 

I tend to fuss with these types of problems wasting time and raising my blood pressure.   As stated only a few vendors  provide decent precarve stocks.  Other than Kibler and Chambers I am more likely to work from a plank.  In the end the product is better, can be faster and is certainly more fun. 

Offline sz

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 05:29:19 PM »
One more thing.
Looking at your photo, I would probably make a custom vent liner that will suspend the lower 45 degree corner of the octagon and just put the flash hole .080 above the pan bottom.  It will look weird when the frizzen is open, but it will not harm the way the rifles fires at all, and will be a LOT better option then trying to fix the spacing on the stock
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 05:31:09 PM by sz »

Offline looper

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2018, 05:31:25 PM »
How thick are the web, the ramrod channel, and the bottom of the stock. It seems to me that one or the other is going to have some extra in it.

Offline little joe

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2018, 05:54:28 PM »
Solder a lug on the bbl octagon flat below the touch hole  and locate the touch hole as low as possible. These are the pre carve challenges that we all have overcome at some point. Bbl deeper is the first choice if you have the wood.I would not call this a lost cause just a aggrivating one.

Offline rsells

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2018, 05:55:31 PM »
I would check with my supplier to see if he would exchange the stock for you.  If that didn't work, I have one suggestion that might work.  Jim Chambers makes a flint lock with a rectangular plate.  It has all of the internal and external parts attached, but the plate has not been profiled.  I am not sure how much extra material that Jim left on the top side of the plate, but there is ample material on the bottom.  There is a photo of one of these in the lock section of his web page.  Give him a call and he will be happy to discuss it with you.  I purchased a cap version of one of these a while back to pull me out of the fire.  I had purchased a super fancy GRRW incomplete Hawken kit when they closed their doors.  It had all the parts with the exception of a lock.  Over the years I have tried every lock that they were known to have used, but none would fit the lock inlet.  I think it was machined too large.  The cap version of Jim's lock worked out great.  After all these years, I have all the parts I need to build a super GRRW Hawken rifle thanks to the lock Jim had in stock.  Good luck.
                                                            Roger Sells

Online rich pierce

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2018, 06:18:40 PM »
About using a bigger lock: having a lock so low is going to mess up the whole wrist architecture. I’d get a stock blank and go from there.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Telgan

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2018, 06:19:59 PM »
Larger Lock

Offline Greg Pennell

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2018, 06:28:52 PM »
Eric, if I was faced with that problem and wanted to try and save the stock, I’d try to find the best matching piece of wood I could find, and inlet a patch.  Then re-inlet the lock where it’s supposed to be. By the time your inletting is done, and the panel shaped, the repair will most likely be hard to find.

Greg
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Offline EC121

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2018, 06:39:10 PM »
What Mr. Pennell said would the first choice, but you might just file off the whole panel and glue a new panel on.  By the time it is shaped and stained there won't be much to see.  A well done save can be satisfying by itself.  If you are building it for yourself, it won't matter, and you saved a nice piece of wood..  You could always tell people the stock split while fighting a charging armadillo.  ;D
Brice Stultz

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2018, 08:06:17 PM »
Well sometimes a bargain is not a bargain in the long run :(.
For me the "fix" would be to patch the lock mortise (also said by others) and re-inlet the lock if this is going to be your own rifle - if it is for someone else then you HAVE to get a new stock >:(. Chalk it up as a learning experience -- at least you did not pay full price for the kit ;D
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

n stephenson

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2018, 08:24:01 PM »
Eric, For what it`s worth , on page 526 , RCA2, rifle #121 John Thomas` rifle . This rifle was reworked in England about 1802 by Durs Egg, he slabbed the side off , replaced the wood and installed a new lock. So, at least there is some historical documentation of the practice.  Just thought I`d present this . I personally would fix it , and continue on as planned. JMHO   Nate

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2018, 08:40:22 PM »
There is a 5/16 web at the breech. I am not going to name names but I have had two precarves from the same place and both were a mess. On the one in the picture below I requested that the lock panel be left alone, I inletted the lock myself.

I am leaning toward inletting the lock higher and patching the lock mortise. I have done a bunch of patching in the past, if I didn't point the patches out to someone no one would notice them.

When I drilled for the front trigger guard lug on this rifle the bit wandered and came out in the wrong place. I patched the bad hole and redrilled. When I pushed the forward lug pin through the new hole it caught the old hole and splintered an inch long piece out of the molding. I assembled the pieces and put everything back together with super glue. After staining and finishing the patch is invisible.



« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 08:42:49 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2018, 09:01:24 PM »
Eric,
Some one already mentioned the Chambers gun makers lock. 1 3/16" high plate would fix it.
Either this, the patch, or a new piece of wood are  about the only answer.
All  are a big hassle, but can be done.
Good luck Sir.  It seems I must keep teaching myself the same lesson..... you get what you pay for!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 09:02:01 PM by smallpatch »
In His grip,

Dane

Offline WKevinD

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2018, 10:42:47 PM »
Why not line the pan? If it were mine I'd probably do just that and move on and offer it to someone at a bargain price when it was done.

Kevin
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Offline looper

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2018, 11:04:27 PM »
I think you've got a lot of room to drop that barrel down. You could go another 3/16" and still have a 1/8" web. Did you say that the barrel is swamped or straight?

Offline Stophel

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2018, 12:58:41 AM »
I have trashed stocks before.  It doesn't matter one bit how pretty the wood is.  If it is screwed up, it ain't worth the hassle.

That said, if you still have a 5/16 inch "web" of wood between the barrel and rod (I assume at the rear, what is the dimension at the front?) that is an enormous amount of wood, and the barrel should be closer to the ramrod.  The lock is probably exactly where it should be, but the barrel is in the wrong place.  A web thickness of 1/8" or maybe 3/16" if it's a straight or relatively small-breeched barrel is what you should shoot for. Inlet the whole thing down.  If you inlet mostly the rear end down, you'll mess up the angles of everything, and basically reducing the drop at the heel (which you may want :D ), so probably it needs to go straight down, evenly all the way.  Not really a tough job at all, just kind of a pain to have to do.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 01:00:21 AM by Stophel »
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Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2018, 01:40:46 AM »
The barrel is a C weight Rice, 38" for an Issac Haines rifle.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2018, 02:18:47 AM »
Eric, I think you are on the right track with inletting as high as possible, then patching the gap.  I think you have enough experience to do that.
If you really need to, you could use the Chambers rectangular flat plate.

Still trying to get used to typing on this new laptop.  Seems I rest my wrists in the area that moves the cursor, AND on the right and left click bars.  Get some really unusual happenings!  Or maybe I need to go back to a pad of paper, a pencil with a large eraser, and a stack of envelopes and stamps!
Craig Wilcox
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Precarve, this might be a lost cause
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2018, 02:24:56 AM »
Drop the barrel 'til you have 1/8" or a little less at the breech end and about 5/32" at the muzzle. Drill for the touch hole as low on the flat as you can...it does not need to be in the centre of the flat.  But you need to have the pan covering the side flat or fouling and priming powder will get into the lock mortise.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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