Author Topic: building a long range rifle??  (Read 6440 times)

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1396
building a long range rifle??
« on: May 12, 2018, 08:04:06 PM »
Lately I have been thinking about building a long range bullet rifle for some far off steel dinging.  Something similar to a  Gibbs, or Whitworth rifle, without the funky hexagonal bore, and with my own style.  I have heard rave reviews about the Gibbs' accuracy.  This is one of those times when I could build a gun cheaper than a factory gun.  My first task is figuring out what to use for a barrel. My thinking was a 1" straight octagon around 36" long in .45 caliber with 1-18 twist from Charles Burton.  Should I go with a longer barrel? He builds them up to 48".  I expect to be shooting at around 600 meters.  I also plan on a single set, or double set trigger with creedmoore and globe sights I would love any suggestions, as bullet guns are a whole new thing for me. Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 10:02:00 PM by Justin Urbantas »

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2018, 08:42:06 PM »
 Think along the theory of a 45-70 ---etc.  I would go for a little thicker barrel.  Also depends on if you intend t oshoot off hand or bench.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1396
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2018, 09:28:16 PM »
Think along the theory of a 45-70 ---etc.  I would go for a little thicker barrel.  Also depends on if you intend t oshoot off hand or bench.
It would be off the bench or crossed sticks with the odd offhand shot. Does the thicker barrel just help keep it steadier on a bench?  What about a lighter 15/16 barrel with a longer length ? What is the advantage of barrel thickness vs length? I guess with a longer barrel you get a finer sight picture?

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2018, 12:09:09 AM »
Make sure that bullet is NOT made from 12L14.Call Rice and see what they have.
Jason told me all their bullet barrels are made from a much stronger material than
12L14.
If you plan to compete in regular long range competition you can't have set triggers.
Get a breech plug made for the higher pressures these bullet gun work with. Rod England
makes the Don Brown Alex Henry breech plug.His phone is 1-864-590-6718 or
<rtengland864@aol.com>.Rod can probably furnish all you need for such a rifle.

Bob Roller

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2018, 01:00:36 AM »
Justin, one reason for a thicker, thus heavier barrel, is overheating.  I know if I fire my 1873 Springfield .45-70 too quickly, that the barrel will quickly get too hot to handle or to sight along.

I, too, would like to do some long range stuff in BP.  Built a couple Creedmore rifles for people, and always enjoyed the sighting-in process.

Gives a big thrill when that gong rings!

Craig
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2018, 01:43:40 AM »
What Roller said sounds like good advise.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2018, 03:15:26 AM »
1.  For a .45 LRML, your barrel should be made from 4140, octagon to round.  1-1/8" at the rear tapering to 15/16 at the muzzle.  It must be that rear dimension to withstand the chamber pressures of a 550 grain bullet behind 90 to 100 gr of powder.  The Rod England breechplug is required as it is correctly made to withstand those pressures.  the ones sold by TOTW and others are suspect.

2.  The barrel is 36" long so the distance between the front and rear sights is that length.  That gives you 1 MOA, which is what the calibration of the rear sight is.  The barrel needs to have a recessed crown.

3.  You will need a platinum lined nipple properly fitted to your breechplug.  A conventional nipple will burn out in as little as 10 shots.

4.  You will need a proper bullet mold sized to your bore.  Then you will need a bullet sizer that is approximately .001 under your bore size.  The bullet should be a slip fit and load with only the weight of the ramrod.  A lubrisizer is ideal as it both lubes and sizes the bullets at the same time.

5.  You will need a drop tube for loading.  You will need a scale marked in grains to weigh your powder charges and vials to keep the powder in.  You will also need to weigh your bullets so they are +/- 1 grain.  Over and under weight bullets can be used but must be segregated into groups by weight.  These bullets will require a sight adjustment, but are good for sighting in and getting on target.

6.  You will need a spotting scope to see where they are hitting and preferably a spotter helping you who can see where they hit for adjustments.

7.  You will need a machinist to mount your front and rear sights so they are centered on the bore.  This ain't a hacksaw job.

Rod England's complete kit will run around $1400.  Figure another $150-200 for mold and sizer.  Good front and rear sights will run upwards of $800.  Cheap sights won't get it done.  Platinum nipple is $50.

8.  You can build a cheaper rifle using a Green Mountain black powder cartridge barrel in one inch octagon if it's .38 or .40 caliber and be able to use a TOTW breechplug and other parts sold by them.  You'll still need most of the other stuff.  Some of the parts can be sourced from Pecatonica which they use on their Rigby kit.

This is a .38 that I made 2 years ago.  It shoots well out to 500 meters but probably not much further.  However, it doesn't give you a concussion every time you shoot it.  .45's will kick the snot out of you.  Snapper can probably add additional info.




« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 06:17:54 PM by T*O*F »
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1396
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2018, 04:23:08 AM »
Thanks for the advise guys. I have a few questions for TOF.

What would the trajectory difference between the .40 and .45 be?  Which caliber would be best at say 600 meters? If a .40 would do it, I would take that over a .45
 Looking at the .40 Green Mountain barrels, the bore diameter is .400 and the groove diameter is .408. What size bullet would you look for?

How would the machinist mount the rear sight on the tang different than I would drilling and tapping a few holes?  I understand about getting the front dovetail cut parallel with machine precision.

I picked up one of these for a deal. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/883/3/RS-DP-SOULE-3
And I have a globe front with interchangeable inserts.

Is there something wrong with one of these breechplugs? Do you not think they are safe? https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/665/1/PLUG-TAN-18-3

I am not a rich man, so I was hoping to get everything for a good rifle for under $1000.
Thanks for all of your help. Cheers


« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 08:01:06 AM by Justin Urbantas »

Offline Sharpsman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
  • "There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2018, 06:02:03 AM »
You may as well forget about the Pedersoli tang sight!!

JUNK!!
"There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1396
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2018, 06:22:04 AM »
You may as well forget about the Pedersoli tang sight!!

JUNK!!
What's wrong with the sight?

Offline Don Steele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 689
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2018, 01:48:03 PM »
Justin,
I just read the great article in Muzzle Blasts about the Long Range ML shoot in Oak Ridge, TN. It got me thinking about the specs. I'd want for a rifle to do that sort of thing too. Based upon my combined experience in NRA High Power and BPCR shooting over the years, I'm in total agreement with the direction T*O*F  is suggesting.
When I started shooting BPCR some of my friends were jumping in and starting right out with 45/90's, 45/110's, etc.  ::)
A lot of them subsequently left the sport after getting tired of being beaten up.  :-[
That got me to thinking about something more in the 38 to 40 cal. family. Excellent ballistic coefficient, less pounding.  ;)
In NRA competition where we used to shoot 30 cal in various magnum calibers in the 1000 yd matches (my own choice back in the day was 30/338 for example)...the smaller diameter loonnnggg bullets have come to pretty much rule the sport these days.
The last thing to consider is how often can you enjoy the challenges of 600+ yd shooting.?? In my case...lack of a venue for the really long game got me out of BPCR as it got kinda boring shooting my 45/70 at shorter ranges.
Going back to T*O*F's comment about his 38 cal beyond 500 meters, something like that might be just the compromise I'd be looking for. 


Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2018, 02:38:48 PM »
Hi Folks,
Please restrict this discussion to muzzle loaders and muzzleloading technology used before 1860. There are other forums and web sites better suited to discuss late 19th century long range shooting.

dave
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 02:40:46 PM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Hudnut

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2018, 02:39:22 PM »
The suggestions re barrel and breechplug are being made because these rifles operate at higher pressures.  Hence the same barrel steel as a modern rifle, and breechplugs machined from alloy steel.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 02:40:21 PM by Hudnut »

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2018, 03:26:54 PM »
Breech plug selection is very important.  The first picture is a lyman GPR.  There is no shoulder for the nipple to fit against.  The second picture is not the best, but it is what you would get from Rod England.  A plug with a shoulder for the nipple to fit tight up-against.  The third picture is of my Rigby, and shows it much better.



[/url
[url=https://ibb.co/kSkcty]


A cheaper way to build a rifle would be to use a box lock action or a underhammer.

I am not a fan of pedersoli sights, but it would not be a bad place to start, and they are on the cheaper side for cost.  I agree with TOF's post.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2018, 03:29:10 PM »
You need a precision made rear sight. I found that many of the less expensive sights had some play in the threads. At long range, what good is a rifle that shoots minute of angle if your sight adjustments are 3 or 4 or more ?  Repeatability is absolutely necessary.
See what the folks successfully shooting the long range matches are using and then pick a sight that works for you.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2018, 03:35:26 PM »
Years ago I posted that these rifles are NOT "Kentucky" rifles that
can be made using whatever parts are in the tool box.They are a
highly specialized rifle and there are no safe ways to shortcut their
construction. T*O*F* has the right idea and it's not cheap.
I don't want anyone to put one of these together with a heavy barrel
and a drum and nipple to fire it.
I know this isn't the right forum for these guns but then if those of us
who know about them can prevent a bad accident I will try to speak up.

Bob Roller

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2018, 03:44:11 PM »
Actually, Dennis has been very gracious in the past to allow english  sporting rifles to  be discussed here.  I think that the mod was talking about the discussion slipping into the BPCR area.

I use Montana Vintage Arms rear sights and Distant Thunder front sights.


Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2018, 03:53:38 PM »
Justin,
I just read the great article in Muzzle Blasts about the Long Range ML shoot in Oak Ridge, TN. It got me thinking about the specs. I'd want for a rifle to do that sort of thing too. Based upon my combined experience in NRA High Power and BPCR shooting over the years, I'm in total agreement with the direction T*O*F  is suggesting.
When I started shooting BPCR some of my friends were jumping in and starting right out with 45/90's, 45/110's, etc.  ::)
A lot of them subsequently left the sport after getting tired of being beaten up.  :-[
That got me to thinking about something more in the 38 to 40 cal. family. Excellent ballistic coefficient, less pounding.  ;)
In NRA competition where we used to shoot 30 cal in various magnum calibers in the 1000 yd matches (my own choice back in the day was 30/338 for example)...the smaller diameter loonnnggg bullets have come to pretty much rule the sport these days.
The last thing to consider is how often can you enjoy the challenges of 600+ yd shooting.?? In my case...lack of a venue for the really long game got me out of BPCR as it got kinda boring shooting my 45/70 at shorter ranges.
Going back to T*O*F's comment about his 38 cal beyond 500 meters, something like that might be just the compromise I'd be looking for.

The 38 or .375 with a 330 grain bullet will work beyond 500 yards according to a friend in New Zealand
who wife uses one at 800 with good results.Easy to shoot and won't knock your hat off with every shot.
Also easier on the lead and powder supply as well.
Bob Roller

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2018, 04:25:19 PM »
Mounting the rear base is important, as is trying to get it level. If your base is not level as you raise the sight it will magnify your error.

I level the rifle in a vise and then use a digital table saw angle gauge on the staff to get the base as level as I can.  I use brass shims under the base for leveling.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2018, 04:40:31 PM »
Also, sight bases are tang specific.  There is no guarantee that the sight you choose will fit your tang.  Likewise, some of the breech plug/tang combos that TOTW sells are poorly cast.  The tangs are thicker on one side.  If merely faced off and fitted to the plug, they will be canted to one side and not in the centerline of the bore.  This is particularly true of the ones for one inch barrels.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1396
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2018, 05:10:38 PM »
Thanks guys. Where would a more appropriate forum for this discussion be? Are the Green Mountain cartridge barrels sufficient, or should I look elsewhere? They say they are made of 4140. I do not know the difference in barrel steels.   I hadn't even considered a box lock action. I wouldn't know a thing about how to adjust a trigger on one of those.  Would this one be good? http://www.longrifles-pr.com/allenboxlock.shtml
My thoughts for mounting the rear sight on a standard hook breech  was gluing/soldering on the tang to the hook breech like I would for inletting and leveling it and installing like Snapper says. I definitely want to be safe on this build, that's why I'm here. I'm a complete novice on percussion guns in general. I've always been a flintlock shooter.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 05:12:40 PM by Justin Urbantas »

Offline Ghillie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2018, 05:52:25 PM »
I have been shooting black powder cartridge rifles for about 15 years.  In my experience most people who try using a lesser expensive Soule sight such as the one pictured end up trashing it and going with the more expensive sights.  My advice, buy once, it's cheaper in the long run.  Bargain sights are a bargain for a reason.

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1396
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2018, 05:59:08 PM »
I have been shooting black powder cartridge rifles for about 15 years.  In my experience most people who try using a lesser expensive Soule sight such as the one pictured end up trashing it and going with the more expensive sights.  My advice, buy once, it's cheaper in the long run.  Bargain sights are a bargain for a reason.
$300 sure seems expensive to me.

Offline WKevinD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2018, 05:59:20 PM »
Justin, the Allen Box Lock is clean and simple and as far as I am concerned needs no trigger adjustments, the one I built has a light but crisp clean trigger release.

Kevin

PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1396
Re: building a long range rifle??
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2018, 06:05:26 PM »
Justin, the Allen Box Lock is clean and simple and as far as I am concerned needs no trigger adjustments, the one I built has a light but crisp clean trigger release.

Kevin

How light do you think the pull is?