building a long range rifle??

[WKevinD]

I'm not sure, but trigger pull was one of my concerns also, it is lighter than any of my suppository guns and close to my fowlers but with a cleaner faster break.

Kevin 

[hudson]

The place to go and the man to talk to, Lee I am sure would be willing to help to you.

http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/

[Bob Roller]

I have been shooting black powder cartridge rifles for about 15 years.  In my experience most people who try using a lesser expensive Soule sight such as the one pictured end up trashing it and going with the more expensive sights.  My advice, buy once, it's cheaper in the long run.  Bargain sights are a bargain for a reason.

$300 sure seems expensive to me.

Finely crafted sights like any other quality component will NOT BE CHEAP.
If you try to build one of these for the price of a T/C Hawken I say forget it.
I make a lock for these guns that is also $300 and I won't pay anyone to buy it.

Bob Roller

[rich pierce]

Thanks guys. Where would a more appropriate forum for this discussion be?

Not speaking for all moderators here.  It’s hard to discuss long range bullet guns without referencing experience with cartridge guns, but if everyone can find a way to do that, this could be a productive and interesting discussion to many of our members. 

I would not want to see our forum lean toward similar topics often, as we would likely lose our focus on the longrifle.

[Justin Urbantas]

Thanks guys. Where would a more appropriate forum for this discussion be?

Not speaking for all moderators here.  It’s hard to discuss long range bullet guns without referencing experience with cartridge guns, but if everyone can find a way to do that, this could be a productive and interesting discussion to many of our members. 

I would not want to see our forum lean toward similar topics often, as we would likely lose our focus on the longrifle.

Are there other websites better suited to discussing building and shooting bullet muzzleloaders?

[snapper]

Yes the Allan box locks will work well.  My first LRML is from one of these actions.  A GM barrel will work just fine.  Don Stith I think still makes stocks that fits the boxlock with a nice wide shotgun type butt.

My first set of sights was from "parts unknown".  They were OK, but not great.

A good set of MVA sights will set you back $700 plus for both front and back.

Lee Shaver makes a good set of sights that are cheaper.

Fleener

[Kevin Houlihan]

If you’re going to build a .40 cal for mid range or long range, it should be a 1:16 twist. I shoot a .40 and with the 1:16, it shoots good out to 600 - which is the farthest I’ve shot it. Typically the .45’s use a 1:18. Also, because these are typically shot off X sticks, over all weight of the gun is your friend. I believe that 15 lbs is the limit.
Good luck
Kevin

[Curtis]

Along withe some of the other great advice, I would listen to TOF and Snapper's thoughts.  TOF has scads of experience building Long Range Rifles Muzzleloading rifles, and Snapper has lots of experience shooting long rang MLR competition.

Curtis

[Justin Urbantas]

Thanks for all the help guys. I have some good ideas to get started.  TOF do you know how much those Alex Henry machined plugs cost these days?  I like the idea of a .40 cal.  The Green Mountain barrels are 35" with a 1- 14.5 twist.  http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/w401436-4-35-40-82-cal-4-profile-tapered-octagon-bpcr/
What diameter bullet mold am I looking for for a .400 bore?
I should be out of questions soon. Maybe...

[Daryl]

Taylor's .50, with a 24" twist does well to 1,000 meters with a 600gr. pointy bullet and 91gr. 1 1/2 F Swiss.

It gets your attention, even in an 11 1/2 pound rifle with a flat butt. Prone would not be fun (for long).

[snapper]

Bob Roller I think posted Rod Englands contact ino.  I saw Rod in March and he had a bunch of those plugs with him.  I did not ask him how much they cost.

If you ever think you might want to shoot this rifle in competition, and out to 1,000 yards, I would not build a .40 cal.

You are a younger guy, and should be able to handle the recoil.  If you use a recoil pad and you are set up right, you wont notice the recoil. 

Fleener

[Bob Roller]

Thanks for all the help guys. I have some good ideas to get started.  TOF do you know how much those Alex Henry machined plugs cost these days?  I like the idea of a .40 cal.  The Green Mountain barrels are 35" with a 1- 14.5 twist.  http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/w401436-4-35-40-82-cal-4-profile-tapered-octagon-bpcr/
What diameter bullet mold am I looking for for a .400 bore?
I should be out of questions soon. Maybe...

Don't run out of questions. The only "dumb" question is the unasked one.
.400 bore and ,408 grooves will easily use a .400 bullet. Use a .408 mould and get
a .400 sizer and it will load easily and the upset when the charge fires will swell
the bullet to fill the grooves.

Bob Roller

[Justin Urbantas]

I'll give Rod a call, and order a plug and nipple.  Snapper, what would you think the max effective range of the .40 vs the .45 would be? I thought the .40 had a flatter trajectory. It must be a matter of the wind deflection.  Thanks Bob. I have been looking around at molds, and didn't see any at .400 or .450 respectively.  Finding a sizing die should be easy

[T*O*F]

.400 bore and ,408 grooves will easily use a .400 bullet. Use a .408 mould and get
a .400 sizer and it will load easily

It won't load easily.  The bullet has to be less than bore size.  It often takes a sizer that is .003 less than bore size and hone it out until the proper fit is achieved.

Building one of these is an advanced level build which is easily screwed up.  There are too many intricacies that will bite you in the behind.  All the components for a particular rifle must be a matched set to properly position the components and screws.  They are unlike a percussion or flint lock rifle that anyone can cobble together a bunch of mismatched parts and make it work.


Rod England's breech plug will only work with a 1-1/8" barrel, a Davis or Roller Alex Henry lock and the Davis drip bar and his components.  A 1" barrel requires an L&R lock and drip bar with either TOTW or Pecatonica's component set.  Each set ensures that the trigger will be in the proper location relative to the lock.  The standing breech of each set also determines the proper surround of the lock panel.  There is also a screw which goes thru the trigger bar at a specific point and must hit precisely in the center of the standing breech.  At the same time, you must drill thru the tang into an angled post on the trigger plate and hit it dead center.  If either of these isn't right, it will pull the standing breech forward when tightened and pull the standing breech forward resulting in a gap behind it.  There are other sneaky little details as well.

If you try to build a Ferrari on a Chevrolet budget, you will end up with a Yugo rifle.  You would be better off spending that money on that cute baby you're holding and your wife.  But if you are determined to build one and it will only be for casual plinking, you will be better served just buying a set of box lock components from Pecatonica.

[Daryl]

For my .50 Bauska barrel, I solved the bullet sizing problem by cutting off a 2" piece of barrel and making a bullet swage out of it.
I threaded the piece of barrel 7/8X14, then coned one end, leaving the other square.  I threaded it into the loading press, and used a shell holder with a nose fitting plunger I made on my poor man's lathe.
Devcon Epoxy made the fit perfect. I then lubed the bullets and pushed them up through the die, base first. These came out the top perfectly formed to the rifling and were now a mechanically fit
to the lands and grooves. 
These mechanically fit bullets were amazingly accurate.

[bob in the woods]

I shot in 1000 yard matches  for years, and tried a .40  , a 45  and even a .50 cal     The .45 has the edge over the .40 when you get past 600 or maybe 700 yards at the most.  My .50 would do as well as the .45 , but required a 650 to 775 gr do so, with powder charge to match.  We shot prone, and the recoil would slide me back every shot.  With a PAST recoil pad under a shooting jacket, it was tolerable, but the .45 did the best overall.  My rifle likes a 540 gr bullet, [custom nose pour mould made by Tom Ballard.  ]
Before you build a rifle, and purchase the sights, accessories etc required, you might want to attend a match / practice session and I'm sure there will be those willing to share their experience and equipment. We often had time after a match to coach interested shooters through a few shots.   Since we shot prone, the up and down, together with the loading etc got to be too much for some and they drifted over to breechloaders.     I guess my point is that this is not something you get into on a whim.

[Justin Urbantas]

Sounds like an Allen action would be my best bet with a .45 barrel right now.  Where would one find an odd diameter bullet sizer like you're suggesting?  When you build a rifle for long range like this, do you make the length of pull shorter to compensate for a recoil pad?

[Greg Pennell]

Justin, Lee Reloading makes a push-through die that is very inexpensive, and works very well. The die screws into a standard reloading press, and a matching stem snaps on the ram in place of a shell holder. They have them in many sizes, and will also make custom sizes.

There are different options for recoil control, too. You can fit a recoil pad (I recommend Pachmayer Decellerator).  Or, if you prefer your rifle to look traditional, stock it with a steel butt plate, and either wear a recoil pad such as those sold by Buffalo Arms, or use one of the slip-over pads such as a “Kick Killer”.  They’re effective, and at the end of the day your rifle looks traditional.

Greg

[Bob Roller]

.400 bore and ,408 grooves will easily use a .400 bullet. Use a .408 mould and get
a .400 sizer and it will load easily

It won't load easily.  The bullet has to be less than bore size.  It often takes a sizer that is .003 less than bore size and hone it out until the proper fit is achieved.

Building one of these is an advanced level build which is easily screwed up.  There are too many intricacies that will bite you in the behind.  All the components for a particular rifle must be a matched set to properly position the components and screws.  They are unlike a percussion or flint lock rifle that anyone can cobble together a bunch of mismatched parts and make it work.


Rod England's breech plug will only work with a 1-1/8" barrel, a Davis or Roller Alex Henry lock and the Davis drip bar and his components.  A 1" barrel requires an L&R lock and drip bar with either TOTW or Pecatonica's component set.  Each set ensures that the trigger will be in the proper location relative to the lock.  The standing breech of each set also determines the proper surround of the lock panel.  There is also a screw which goes thru the trigger bar at a specific point and must hit precisely in the center of the standing breech.  At the same time, you must drill thru the tang into an angled post on the trigger plate and hit it dead center.  If either of these isn't right, it will pull the standing breech forward when tightened and pull the standing breech forward resulting in a gap behind it.  There are other sneaky little details as well.

If you try to build a Ferrari on a Chevrolet budget, you will end up with a Yugo rifle.  You would be better off spending that money on that cute baby you're holding and your wife.  But if you are determined to build one and it will only be for casual plinking, you will be better served just buying a set of box lock components from Pecatonica.

I used a GM barrel with a .450 bore and sized the bullet to .4501 and it was easy to load and shot well enough
to win at 500 meters.I used a greased bullet and 75 grains of old 3fg.

Bob Roller

[hudson]

I have used the Allen action for years for round ball with pretty heavy charges, wonderful action. I have seen two verities used for long range rifles apparently without a problem. I do have a problem not knowing what the action in made of. There is not a seat for the end of the nipple which is also of concern. Good luck with your project.

[n stephenson]

This has been an interesting thread. Hearing of all the little details that must be thought out in advance is interesting. I know that these are not bench guns , but I think about the bench guns at Friendship , "the ones that knock you off the commode every time someone touches one off". Like all the other aspects of this sport , different strokes for different folks. All my black powder shooting is done from a pouch and horn, the tackle boxes and all the equiptment  I see people dragging around , just looks not fun!! Just me. I look at this like cars , these long range and bench guns are like Top Fuel dragsters , not much use for anything else. I`m more of a street car guy , drive it to the race track, kick butt, drive home. Like I stated , these are interesting rifles , just too much on the technical side to be much fun for me . Not to mention I can build two guns for the price of the good parts for one of these. JMHO. Nate

[Bob Roller]

This has been an interesting thread. Hearing of all the little details that must be thought out in advance is interesting. I know that these are not bench guns , but I think about the bench guns at Friendship , "the ones that knock you off the commode every time someone touches one off". Like all the other aspects of this sport , different strokes for different folks. All my black powder shooting is done from a pouch and horn, the tackle boxes and all the equiptment  I see people dragging around , just looks not fun!! Just me. I look at this like cars , these long range and bench guns are like Top Fuel dragsters , not much use for anything else. I`m more of a street car guy , drive it to the race track, kick butt, drive home. Like I stated , these are interesting rifles , just too much on the technical side to be much fun for me . Not to mention I can build two guns for the price of the good parts for one of these. JMHO. Nate
/quote

Nate is right.These are VERY specialized rifles and appeal to a VERY narrow segment of the black powder shooting sports.
At one time there was a forum dedicated to them called LRMR (Long Range Muzzle Loading Rifles) hosted by David Minshall
in England.You might try a search for it. I published several letters on it myself.

Bob Roller

[Scota4570]

Twice, I have made a size die out of the barrel itself.  I lap the barrel to create a choke.  I turn the muzzle OD to make a size die for my bullet luber sizer,  part if off.  Finish the rifled size die.  Crown the barrel.  Some choke needs to  remain in the barrel, plan ahead.  Size grease groove bullets.  They are now mechanically fitted to the barrel.  Because of the choke and being slightly undersized, the choke, they load super easy.  Accuracy was pretty good. But since I used cheap Numrich button barrels I can not say what would happen with a decent barrel. 

I also want to make a rifle with a false muzzle some day.  I think that the bore index pin could be cast form linotype.  I'd glue the false muzzle on and then drill the index pins.     

[T*O*F]

All my black powder shooting is done from a pouch and horn,

Nate,
Interest in one discipline does not preclude the lack of interest in others.  I did the reenacting thing as well as hunting, trail walks and traveling to other clubs to shoot in their monthly matches.  I used to go thru 2 cases of powder a year and I still shoot a monthly woodswalk.  Most guys are lucky to shoot 1 or 2 cans of powder a year.  However, age and infirmities take their toll and coming in last all the time in offhand matches take the fun out of it.  So, one seeks venues where shooting is done prone and that pretty much limits one to long range or chunk gun.  Obviously others have the same problem as evidenced by the growing popularity of table and board matches.  Every man seeks to be competent, while others aspire to higher goals.  Most guys here are just casual shooters and fall in the middle of the bell curve.

I used a GM barrel with a .450 bore and sized the bullet to .4501 and it was easy to load and shot well enough
to win at 500 meters.I used a greased bullet and 75 grains of old 3fg.

That's great, Bob.  We are all in awe of your past experiences.  However, no one that I know of shoots a bullet that is not less than bore size.


Since Justin seems to have settled on a boxlock, it's probably time to end this thread before we wear out our welcome.  Time to lock it up.

He can find answers to his other questions on the Yahoo mailing lists; BP-L, and ShootingBPCR.

[Daryl]

Twice, I have made a size die out of the barrel itself.  I lap the barrel to create a choke.  I turn the muzzle OD to make a size die for my bullet luber sizer,  part if off.  Finish the rifled size die.  Crown the barrel.  Some choke needs to  remain in the barrel, plan ahead.  Size grease groove bullets.  They are now mechanically fitted to the barrel.  Because of the choke and being slightly undersized, the choke, they load super easy.  Accuracy was pretty good. But since I used cheap Numrich button barrels I can not say what would happen with a decent barrel. 

I also want to make a rifle with a false muzzle some day.  I think that the bore index pin could be cast form linotype.  I'd glue the false muzzle on and then drill the index pins.   

Interesting, Scota4570 - your work on lapping and making the die, just about mirrors mine.