Author Topic: I'd like to learn to engrave some simple borders on triggergards, ect...  (Read 13548 times)

Offline Rolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat.
I'd like to learn how to do some simple engraved borders on the pistols I'm making.
They only sell palm engravers in norway. These are the engravers I've bought.

I've tried the palm engravers on a piece of brass. I've only been able to make deep gouges in the brass. I have no controll  over the tools. I think the main problem is I haven't sharpen the tools correctly. The only sharpening tools available is either a professional machine that cost over 1000$ or this crude device I've bought.

I have been thinking about buying the Lindsay sharpening system, but I'm been reluctant to spend 350$ on something I'm not sure will solve my problem.
 
Is there anywhere I could buy a couple of engravers that are sharpen with the Lindsay system?
 
Where can I find free info on engraving simple borders and patterns? I'd like to try engraving before investing alot of money on books and videos. There are no courses in engraving in Norway, aside from full time goldsmith education. So if I'm going to do this, I have to learn it on my own.

Best regards
Rolfkt

George F.

  • Guest
Rolf, I also would like to add this to my list of skills, but seems I lack the discipline and/or patience to learn. The palm gravers you bought, from what limited knowledge I have of engraving, are gravers put onto palm pushing handles. If you were to install the gravers on chasing handles it would solve your dilemma. I feel the big thing to me about engraving, something that I don't do, is sharpening correctly and layout.I mean I have tried it, and found I was smudging and erasing my layout with my hand as I was chasing a line.  ...Geo.

Offline Dale Halterman

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2695
Did that "crude device" come with instructions? It looks like the lower hole is intended to put a heel on the tool. Have you done that?

I am tempted to sat a few more things, but there are guys on here who actually know how to engrave and I will leave it up to them. Jerry?

Dale H

Offline Rolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Dale, the "crude device" comes without instructions.  I have used the lower hole to put a heel on the graver. If you look at the first picture I posted , you'll see that the holes in the device are tear shaped with a set screw. When I put the graver in the hole and tigthen the set scew , it twists and wobbels in the hole. I have a hard time getting a consistant angel on the tool when I push it along the hone.

Best regards
Rolfkt

Ephraim

  • Guest
try practice on a peace of lead it will help you learn to control your tool
Ephraim

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Try to find a copy of the Jack Brooks video "Beginning Engraving". He shows how to sharpen your gravers and covers both chased and pushed engraving. There is no real need for an expensive sharpening system for most of the simple line type engraving that our rifles use.

If you are engraving Italian shotguns with charging animals and scantily clad nymphs.......well that's another story.

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Rolfkt,
1. Invest your money wisely and remember that free advice is not always good advice.
2. Push engravers are used like a lathe bit.  They are held stationary and the work is turned into them.  This requires having an engravers ball and vise or a potter's wheel setup.  Forget about them.  Start with the hammer chased method.
3.  Everything you need can be made yourself.  Graver bit holders can be made from 3/8 or 1/2 round stock; aluminum, brass or steel will all work.  You just drill one end to accept commonly available 1/8" lathe tool bits.  If using brass or aluminum, drill the other end and thread a round head screw into it so you don't mushroom the end.  You can engrave using a regular vise to hold your work.  Mounted on a pedestal you can move 360 degrees around your work.  Mounted on the very corner of a workbench, you can achieve 270 degree movement and only have to reposition your work minimally.
4.  The BEST book for a beginning engraver is by Neil Hartliep, available from Brownells.  It is a beginning engraving course, step by step.  If you follow the lessons they will teach you everything you need to know to get started.  Meeks book is confusing for a beginner, but will help once you have the basics.
5.  Lindsay's universal template is all you need for 99% of your work.  It's $89.  It allows repeatable sharpening which is important for success.  It will have to be modified to use 1/8" bits aS it is set up for 3/32" which are not available except at increased prices.
6.  You don't need the diamond stones.  They can be sharpened on regular stones.  You need 3 in the equivalent grits of 250-350, 600, and 1200.  You can also buy diamond plates in the same grits for around $6 each.  They need to be mounted on wooden blocks to give you the required 1/2" height for the Lindsay system.

The above will get you started without confusion in beginning engraving.  Once you understand all the concepts, only then should you invest in other equipment should you desire to advance further.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Hi Rolf,
First, the engravers you bought will not work with the Lindsay system. You need 3/32" square gravers to fit in the holder for the Lindsay system. I would suggest that you visit www.handengravingschool.com to get a quick introduction to the craft.  It is geared toward the Lindsay airgraver tool but there is much to be gleaned about basic engraving. You will need to learn how to sharpen your tools. Go to  http://www.igraver.com/sharpening.shtml for a pretty good explanation of sharpening. The site focuses on the GRS honing system but the discussion of the geometry of the tools is universal. The handles you bought are useless as they are.  File a large flat on the bottom so the tool can be held at a very low angle to the metal without the handle hitting the work. You can also set the tools up as chisels by replacing the round handles with longer ones similar to your wood chisels.  I would urge you to learn to use hammer and chisel as a start because control of the tool will be much easier. I also would not choose brass to learn on.  It is miserable stuff to engrave.  Try some mild steel or copper. There is too much to cover about engraving than can be included here so check out web sites as a start. I also learned on my own.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Rolf,
One other quick item. You are going to find that simple borders are not so simple. They are some of the most challenging things to engrave because you need to keep the border parallel with the edge of the object and the depth of cut has to remain even. You can hide a lot of mistakes in scroll work but errors in a border stick out badly and reveal your engraving skills. When you can produce a really good "thick and thin" border (one thick line and a parallel thin line) you will be well on your way to doing good engraving.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
4.  The BEST book for a beginning engraver is by Neil Hartliep, available from Brownells.  It is a beginning engraving course, step by step.  If you follow the lessons they will teach you everything you need to know to get started.  Meeks book is confusing for a beginner, but will help once you have the basics.

Absolutely right on TOF.

Hartliep teaches you how from the very simplest step, advancing piece by piece, easily digested. He includes plans for an engraving setup, angles for sharpening, what tools for what cuts, and his illustrations clear and to the point.

Meek is showing off what he can do, and so intimidating you will quit before you get started. Meek's book is better when you have already learned the basics somewhere else, and are hungry for more. Meek was incredibly talented as an artist and engraver, and his book is a must have, but not your first book.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 06:24:41 PM by Acer Saccharum »
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
There is no such thing as simple engraving. The very first thing you need to learn is how to sharpen correctly. If you bypass that you will have nothing but trouble from then on with little success. Also. -- Basically push gravers were seldom ever used for gun engraving in the 18th century and early 19th century. Almost all the engraving was done with chisels. You can use what you have if you change the handles and use a chasing hammer.  No need to buy a lindsey system. The devise you have will work fine for you if you learn how to use it correctly. You would be much better off with a diamond plate than a stone but the stones will work, they just wear out fast.  
  The distance that the graver or chisel extends from the fixture will determine the face angle of the chisel.
 Using a protractor , try to determine how far to extend the graver to obtain a face angle of 55 degrees.
 When engraving Brass and mild steel a face angle of 55 deg. works best and will be more durable than the standard 45 deg. face angle.  
  Sharpening the heel is the most important part. The heel should be very short, never over .020" or 1/2 mm long.
   Place the graver in the angled slot of the fixture with the face of the graver up. Extend the graver until the angle is 20 deg° . Then make about 1 or two swipes across the stone. It will normally take no more than that to stone the heel. Repeat this procedure for the opposite side of the heel . Be sure that the length of the two heel angles are equal by looking at the bottom of the graver.
     I hope this explanation is understandable for you.  If not-- feel free to ask. The only dumb question is the one that isn't asked.  This explanation refers to a 90° or what is called a square graver.
  
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 07:15:56 PM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
One more thought.... hands on person to person learning is the most effective. GRS offers courses both in the US and Belgium.

Second best, I imagine that there are lots of good  DVD's on engraving, can be rented from SmartFlix. http://smartflix.com/store/category/74/Engraving

Much can be gleaned from books, but the typed word is a funny thing. A simple sentence can be interpreted in many ways. It takes a highly skilled writer to describe exactly what they mean to convey without confusion on the reader's part.

There are several well respected engraving on line forums, one being: http://www.igraver.com/forum/

Acer
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 07:14:46 PM by Acer Saccharum »
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Rolfkt.
   If you buy some square graver blanks they will probably work OK in your fixture without wobbling.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Rolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Thanks for the advice everyone. I've bought the recommend Neil Hartliep book.
The book is out of stock at Brownell, but I found one  new book left at amazon for 32$. 4 used copies where for sale, price 102$!!!!!! Crazy!!!

Dave and acer, I've registered at the recommended websites. A lot of interesting reading there.

TOF, thanks for the idea on graver handles. They sound simple to make.Where can I buy diamond plates for 6$ each? I haven't been able to find any on google under 40$.

Jerry , I've tried to follow your sharpening instructions using the "crude device" with the gravers I got. I can't get it to work. It won't hold my gravers steady. I'd like to try with a square graver blank. Wheres the best place to buy blanks?
If I can't get to work on a square graver, I'll fork out for the Lindsay system TOF recommended.

Best regards
Rolfkt

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
If you can get them the 3 videos by Lynton McKenzie are excellent.
Covers about anything you would need and will greatly reduce the number of tools you think you need.

I am lucky in having a talented engraver for a friend.
But this can be intimidating too  :-[

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline J. Talbert

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
Rolfkt,

Here's the link to Lindsay's Hand engraving forum.
http://www.engravingforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2.
I agree you don't "need" Lindsay's sharpening system, but for repeatable correct sharpening for the beginner, it's mighty hard to beat.  Check out the forum and see for yourself.  You don't have to go all out with his system you can pick and chose just the parts you think you need.  Mount the squares bits in a suitable handle and your ready to go.

Jeff
There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”
Thomas Sowell

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Quote
They sound simple to make.Where can I buy diamond plates for 6$ each?

Go to Smoky Mountain Knife Works
http://www.smkw.com/

Search for part numbers D4C, D4E, and D4F and also D3C, D3E, and D3F.
One series are 4" diamond plates and the other are credit card sized.
I bought the 325 and 600 grit 4" plates and the credit card sized in 1200 grit.
The former are used for rough grinding and the latter for polishing.
I bought them on a sale special, but current prices are still very reasonable.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

John A. Stein

  • Guest
Rolfkt--Search ALR archives, there is a ton of good stuff in there on engraving.  John Stein

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Rolf,
There's enough infor already to get you started.
Maintaining the same sharpening angle is important in maintaining the same cutting characteristics after each sharpening.
An easy way to do this is to make a length gauge, to maintain the same angle without the hassle of using a protractor each time.
To make a length guage, get a piece of tubing (copper, steel, plastic) that fits over the graver.
As Jerry points out, put the graver in the sharpener, and adjust it with the protractor until you have 55 degrees for the face, and lock it in place.
Slip the tubing over the graver, then cut it off exactly at the tip of the graver. Cut, file, smooth, until the tubing is the exact length.
Do the same for the 20 degree heel length.
When you need to re-sharpen the graver (which you will), put the graver into the sharpener gizmo, slip the tubing over the graver, and align the tip of the graver to the end of the tubing,,, and you'll be re-sharpening at the same angle.

A square 90 degree graver is all you'll need to start.
As per Jerry again, the heel should be short; 0.25mm to 0.50mm. A longer heel will help to maintain a straight line, but will mar the line when cutting a arc or circle. A short heel makes it easier to cut a arc or circle, but is harder to maintain a straight line.
Keep in mind that the heel angle will be the angle you hold the tool for cutting. If 20 degrees isn't comfortable for you, hold the tool in a comfortable way, measure the angle, and cut your heels to that angle. Think of the heel as the keel of a boat as it cuts through the water.
Be sure your heels are ground equal length. Check them with a magnifying glass if necessary. If they are of unequal length, the graver will have a tendency to cut to the right or left of straight.
And practice on mild steel as it cuts easier than brass.   
If your cutting an arc, push, hammer, smoothly while doing it. Don't try to change the direction of the cut without the tool moving, or you will break the tip.
Good luck, John
John Robbins

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Go to Smoky Mountain Knife Works
http://www.smkw.com/

Search for part numbers D4C, D4E, and D4F and also D3C, D3E, and D3F.
One series are 4" diamond plates and the other are credit card sized.
I bought the 325 and 600 grit 4" plates and the credit card sized in 1200 grit.
The former are used for rough grinding and the latter for polishing.
I bought them on a sale special, but current prices are still very reasonable.


Is 1200 plenty fine for the engraving commonly done on longrifles (in original styles)?  I am going to buy these as my stones are all old and hollowing out, making it near impossible to maintain a flat face angle.
Andover, Vermont

California Kid

  • Guest
Rich, Jerry H recomends EZ-LAP diamond hones. These are great. I got one in 600 and 1200.
I use them for gravers and chisels. You won't go back once you try them. No oil, and virtually no
maintanence. I wouldn't bother wih Smokey mountain knife. you need real laps.
   http://www.eze-lap.com/index.html

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Rich,
1200 is fine.  I believe some engravers also use a 2000 ceramic stone for a fine polish, but I think that is for special application usage.  At this price, these are only for sharpening gravers and small chisels, not heavy usage.

Kid,
The original question involved price and the ones I proposed fit that bill adequately.  There are many offerings by various companies.  BEST is nothing more than a personal opinion.  Smoky Mtn offers up to 100 different sharpening products by several manufacturers if one wants to pay more.....and usually at a price savings over other merchants.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Thanks to all for informed advice!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Rolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Got a email from smkw on wendsday. They want $55 to ship three stones to Norway. They ship only UPS not USPS. Nuts!!! Those three stones would fit in a USPS small, flat rate, international box. Shipping that way would cost $12.95
Also, they don't take VISA cards on foregin orders, only international money orders.
The banks in Norway charge a $50 flat rate fee for international money orders.

So I geuss I won't be buying from them. I've sent a email to EZE-lap. Hope it goes better with them.

Best regards

Rolfkt

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Maybe I could send them to you.  Not sure how it would work out money-wise.  If you figure it out let me know.  Order and have it shipped to em, etc.  I promise I'll send to you.  Might have to test them to see how they sharpen first.  just kidding about that part.
Andover, Vermont