Fret saw and blades question

[brokenflint]

I think I'm going to bite the bullet on a Kewl Concepts fret saw.  I'd like like some opinions on which model to get and what brand of blades and tooth sizing ya all like. 

[Hungry Horse]

I’m curious what you would use it for? I don’t know that any of the builders I stay in contact with, have ever mentioned using one.

 Hungry Horse

[T*O*F]

I'm assuming you mean a jeweler's saw.  I bought the one just below the best one and its worked fine.
Blades are material thickness dependent.  You want at least 3 teeth contacting the metal.  I buy German or Swiss made ones from the jewelry suppliers like Gesswein.  Most of them have a chart listing the # of teeth per inch.

[Hungry Horse]

I believe fret saws, and jewelers saws are two different tools.

  Hungry Horse

[brokenflint]

Yep I mean a jewelers saw frame, catalog I was looking at online called it a fret saw and that's what I typed, oops.  I see reference to spiral blades as well as the straight type. Stick with the straight type for brass work? 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I only use the flat blades...spiral ones don't cut the way I like.  Buy lots...ie:  many.

[moleeyes36]

Keep the blade well lubed with bee’s wax as you cut with it to reduce friction and binding.  You will reduce the number of broken blades that way.  That’s a good tip I picked up here on the forum in the past.

Mole Eyes

[Waksupi]

Also keep the blades as tightly stretched as possible.

[Hungry Horse]

You will see frames in different depths, and some with aluminum parts. Avoid frames with aluminum parts. And, a little heads up on frame depth, the deeper the frame, the more leverage you have, which makes it a lot easier to break blades. You will find you can do much of the piercings on longrifles with a short or medium depth frame.

  Hungry Horse

[T*O*F]

Avoid frames with aluminum parts.

As a matter of fact, the one he is looking at is the best one on the market today and the frame is completely aluminum.  It has no flex like the metal ones and is self tensioning.  Leverage doesn't break blades.  They will flex if the saw is held vertically, but if you tip the frame to the side when cutting they will snap instantly.

[brokenflint]

Ok here's what I'm looking at, Knew Concepts fret (jewelers) saw in either 3" or 5" throat.  Leaning towards the 5" but not set in stone.  Thought that the 5" would give clearance around the largest patch box pattern, but the 3" for better control.  Looking at blades, I see only one blade type (looking at Rio Grande site only atm) has a radius back, all the others are straight rear profile.  Doing some thickness gauge to saw blade size conversions it looks like 0.050 = #5 blade size, 0.040 = 1/0.  What have ya all found for the best blade size for working on patch boxes / inlays?

[smart dog]

Hi,
I use a Knew Concept 5" jeweler's saw.

The 5" throat is nice but it also gets in the way sometimes when working around a piece and it bumps into my vise.  I often have to position my bird's beak way out to one side of the vise to avoid this.  The Knew Concept saw is head and shoulders better than any of the other saws I've used over the years. Blade attachment is very simple and quick, which makes the saw really useful when cutting piercings where you have to place one end of the blade through a hole in the inlay and attach it to the saw, and then tension it. I find 5/0, 1/0, and 1 Laser Gold blades from Rio Grande cover most most of my work.

dave

[Nordnecker]

It seems like I can cut a whole patchbox with just one blade. As long as I continue cutting forward It'll go and go and go. It's when I have to back the blade out I tend to break them. Cutting hinge knuckles I break blades. Lately, I've started releasing the blade and pulling it out of the cut instead of trying to back it out. 

[Bill Raby]

This is one of the few tools where you are best off going cheap. https://www.riogrande.com/category/tools-and-equipment/saw-blades-and-frames/saw-frames Go to Rio Grande and get the cheapest ones in each size. Always smallest frame that will work. Those fancy saw frames are just silly. I have used just about all the fancy ones out there and they are either broke right away, were just a bunch of trouble, or the cool features would not work right. The dirt cheap ones that I got 30 years ago when I was an apprentice are still perfect. Just ugly. The proper way to install a blade is to put the handle against your chest and the other end against the workbench. Then push against it to bend the frame a bit. Put in the saw blade and it will have plenty of tension. Teeth pointing towards you. Don't need any goofy tension adjusting thing.

My opinion is that the round back blades don't cut curves any better than regular blades. Its probably just a gimmick. The spiral blades are meant for cutting carving wax. Spiral blades don't clog. Cutting carving wax with a regular jeweler saw blade is pretty much impossible. The spiral blades can also cut sideways and backwards. Not sure how useful that is. Not much point in using them  unless you are carving models for lost wax casting. For patch boxes I use 2/0 size blades. Actually I use that size for just about everything. If you need a bigger size than that it is likely best to use a different kind of saw. But I do have some 4 blades that I use on rare occasions. I don't think brand makes any difference for the blades. At least for the ones that the jeweler supply places sell. The cheap ones seem to work as good as the expensive ones.

[smallpatch]

I have that saw, and I love it.  A little controversy..... don't tighten the blade too much.  A little flex will keep them from breaking.

[smart dog]

Hi Dane,
Yeah the "fancy" saw is neither silly or weak.

dave

[P.W.Berkuta]

As the OP can see everyone has a saw frame that works for them and I am no exception. I have 3 frames two are the German Adjustable Jeweler's Saw Frame in 3" and 5" and a cheap Economy Adjustable 2-3/4"Saw Frame which is a piece of JUNK. I DO like the Knew Concept saw frames but not the price. The money you save buying the German frames can be well spent on a LOT of blades.

[brokenflint]

Bill  I already own a couple of the cheap saws and I never can get the adjustment where I want it.  I'm probably like everyone else here, none to happy about plunckin down a benjamin for one!  That said if I can work this tool better then I'm gonna go for it.  Fortunately a woodworking friend has one and I'll be making a trip to his place to try it out.  Thanks for the opinion on the round rear radius blades.  I've ordered the Laser blades from Rio Grande to try out.

Dave would you go with the 3" throat now that you've used the 5" one?

[n stephenson]

I can`t say anything about the aluminum ones , I`ve never had one. I have used the same one that I bought from TOTW  back in the 80s , all these years ,and I`ve never had any problems with it. I do use bees wax on the blade. Like any thing else , the more you use it the better you get. Sometimes I can make a lot of ground with a blade and sometimes Ill snap a few. Depending on one`s financial situation , they have to do what`s right for them. I used the money I saved on a cheap frame to buy me some nicer chisels.  Nate

[bama]

I have had two Jeweler saws over the years, both were 5" deep models. These are the standard German frame and were not very expensive. The only problem I have had with one of them is I stripped the threads on one of the clamp screws. I don't think anything smaller than the 5" deep would work for me but that is all I have ever tried.

[Goo]

The " jewelers saw" or " saw frame"  " piercing saw" are all different names for the same tool.  There are very basic problems associated with this tool #1 there is alot of misinformation floating around about this tool #2 This tool takes a lot more time and effort than people realize how it works and how to use it. #3 For acceptable results and to not spend a living fortune in blades and frustration involves the need for a proper bench and bench pin proper body posture. #4 safety precautions are in order, if you snap off a piece of 4/0 saw blade in side your hand it's going to involve surgical extraction.
The simplicity of the saw frame is basically a spring with a fine wire that has teeth cut into it stretched across the end points.   
  Often times the saw frame gets twisted this causes the blade not to be pulled straight under tension and you start snapping blades and the frame must be straightened .   If your wrist and arm are wobbling around the blade will bind and snap. If the work isnt held down with enough force it wil slide or jump and the blade will snap.  Technique of sawing motion is a problem it's not the same as cutting with a coping saw or a hack saw.     You have to sit at the bench pin and your wrist stays fixed, you reciprocate vertical movement at the elbow and hold the work down so it doesn't move around.     
Learning the proper skills on using an ole fashion saw frame , jewelers saw or piercing saw takes a commitment  and spending $100 on a concept saw wont save you from paying in frustration and snapping a dozen saw blades in 30 minutes.

[Craig Wilcox]

I have just replaced my jeweler's saw that I got from a jeweler friend in 1988.  Didn't break or anything, just lost in the move from OK to OH.  It was a 5" frame, and I used it to cut a heck of a lot of 4130 steel in thicknesses from .032 to 1/4".  I would really like to have the aluminum frame, but maybe when I get rich and famous....

I almost always used 2/0 blades from Rio Grande, and never had a problem with them.  As others have stated, use beeswax on the blade - a simple pass across a square of wax is sufficient.

Always just take your time, keep the saw vertical in the cut, and rest your arm as needed.

Patience is a virtue, possess it if you can, always in a woman, never in a man.

Good luck with your project, let us all know how it comes out.

[horologist]

The Knew Concepts saw is a fine saw, I tried one out at a woodworking conference and would happily buy a used one but am not willing to shell out the cash for a new one. However, while it is chock full of style points it will not function any better than a more traditional and less expensive saw frame. Although I did like the blade clamps. If you do splurge, get the 5” one as the deeper throat will make it easier to saw larger pieces.
Buy good blades. Gesswein, Jules Borel, Otto Frei are all good sources. In a rare organizational frenzy, I bought storage tubes from Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32173&cat=1,43326) and labeled them with the make and blade size. I also have a number of these saws and write which blade is installed on the frame with a sharpie. Release the blade tension when you are done with the saw.



When using the piercing saw, install the blade so it cuts on the pull stroke and use enough tension so it gives a sharp ping when plucked. The general rule is to have three teeth in contact with the work but this is not always possible. Use long smooth strokes to make use of the full cutting length of the blade. Start slowly at first to get the technique right and gradually speed things up. The technique is difficult to describe but it takes a light touch, letting the blade pull into the work rather than pushing it forward. It is vital to always keep the blade in motion when turning or backing out of a cut. Keeping the blade in motion while not allowing it to advance forward and turning the work piece will allow you to cut sharp corners or make tight turns safely. On long cuts it is a good idea to make relief cuts that intersect with the true cut line so the waste will come off in small sections instead of one big piece. This is especially helpful if your shape is complicated or requires backing the blade out. Remember, let the blade do the work any attempt to force it and you will be installing a new one.

Some people like to lubricate the blade with beeswax or paraffin but I have found that it really doesn’t matter and don’t like the way it mucks up your line if you are using a paper template on your work. Good technique is the best way to extend your blade life and that only comes through practice and a pile of broken blades.

I like to keep the work up high and prefer to use a bench pin instead of a vise. Finger pressure is sufficient to hold the work and I find that if you use a vise you tend to break more blades by turning the saw in odd ways to keep from having to loosen and retighten the vise as often.





Troy

[Goo]

The Knew Concepts saw is a fine saw, I tried one out at a woodworking conference and would happily buy a used one but am not willing to shell out the cash for a new one. However, while it is chock full of style points it will not function any better than a more traditional and less expensive saw frame. Although I did like the blade clamps. If you do splurge, get the 5” one as the deeper throat will make it easier to saw larger pieces.
Buy good blades. Gesswein, Jules Borel, Otto Frei are all good sources. In a rare organizational frenzy, I bought storage tubes from Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32173&cat=1,43326) and labeled them with the make and blade size. I also have a number of these saws and write which blade is installed on the frame with a sharpie. Release the blade tension when you are done with the saw.



When using the piercing saw, install the blade so it cuts on the pull stroke and use enough tension so it gives a sharp ping when plucked. The general rule is to have three teeth in contact with the work but this is not always possible. Use long smooth strokes to make use of the full cutting length of the blade. Start slowly at first to get the technique right and gradually speed things up. The technique is difficult to describe but it takes a light touch, letting the blade pull into the work rather than pushing it forward. It is vital to always keep the blade in motion when turning or backing out of a cut. Keeping the blade in motion while not allowing it to advance forward and turning the work piece will allow you to cut sharp corners or make tight turns safely. On long cuts it is a good idea to make relief cuts that intersect with the true cut line so the waste will come off in small sections instead of one big piece. This is especially helpful if your shape is complicated or requires backing the blade out. Remember, let the blade do the work any attempt to force it and you will be installing a new one.

Some people like to lubricate the blade with beeswax or paraffin but I have found that it really doesn’t matter and don’t like the way it mucks up your line if you are using a paper template on your work. Good technique is the best way to extend your blade life and that only comes through practice and a pile of broken blades.

I like to keep the work up high and prefer to use a bench pin instead of a vise. Finger pressure is sufficient to hold the work and I find that if you use a vise you tend to break more blades by turning the saw in odd ways to keep from having to loosen and retighten the vise as often.





Troy

.          One of the moderators should move your reply into the tutorial section , very good explanation

[Tim Crosby]

 One thing I don't think has been mentioned and may go without saying is Practice, no matter what saw frame you end up with. You will quickly learn what can and cannot be done with the thin blades and different thicknesses of material. There are basics, direction of teeth, blade tension, number of teeth based on thickness, making turns, etc... but with practice you will work out a technique that works for you.

  Tim C.