What quality are kits from "the rifle shoppe" compaired to others?

[Bob Roller]

Hi Craig,
The Rifle Shoppe in OK and E. J. Blackleys in England are suppliers of cast and other parts for a huge array of historical firearms way beyond what MBS , TOW, or any other supplier carries. TRS has the widest selection of complete part sets for matchlocks through percussion guns.  They are the sole source for many of those sets including Ferguson rifles.  The problem we all have is neither business operates in a timely fashion and customer service is erratic at best. 

dave

MBS frequently has something to sell and we can work with. This idea of doing
business from an empty shelf and waiting and waiting and waiting some more after
money is sent is a bad idea.The money to the supplier is sent and spent and the work
still must be done to fill the order with no real incentive to do it.In the early 1970's
there were some that took advance pay for gums and never delivered and found their names
on warrants for fraud. One outfit while going bankrupt(filed)took money under false pretense
and delivered nothing.I have some lock work to do but not one cent has been accepted in
advance and won't be.When the work is ready I will then request payment.
Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

...
Paying in advance is a mistake and ACCEPTING advance payment is an even bigger
one.

Bob Roller

Most excellent point Mr. Roller. I too think it is VERY important for folks going into business, who want to keep their names unsullied to understand this.

and on the other subject, maybe if I hit the lotto* I can hire some folks to guy buy out that shoppe and get it sorted and put things right- according to business as expected by reasonable prudent persons.

*remind me to buy a ticket. 

[davec2]

Bob,

Great philosophy.  Each week, I make quite a few custom military insignia (rank, warfare specialty, etc.) and military insignia jewelry out of solid 14 and 18 karat white or yellow gold.  I never take any payment, or even partial payment, in advance and never even arrange for payment until I have shipped the customer's order.  I have had many people (including customers) tell me that sending objects made of solid gold in advance of payment is very risky.  However, I have been making military insignia for members of our armed forces for almost 40 years and I think I have been stiffed once by a customer in all that time.

I like your style, Bob.

All the best

dave C

[Rolf]

In the case of TRS, they offer so many parts and kits that it would be a virtual impossibility to keep everything in stock.

I can sympatize With that. I could live With a 6-12 months lead time if they quoted a spesific max time and kept their promise. Two years or more, not exceptable. Breaking promised delivery times not exceptable. Defect parts not exceptable. I was promised by Blackley less than 6months delivery time. It's gone two years.

Best regards
Rolf

[Bob Roller]

Bob,

Great philosophy.  Each week, I make quite a few custom military insignia (rank, warfare specialty, etc.) and military insignia jewelry out of solid 14 and 18 karat white or yellow gold.  I never take any payment, or even partial payment, in advance and never even arrange for payment until I have shipped the customer's order.  I have had many people (including customers) tell me that sending objects made of solid gold in advance of payment is very risky.  However, I have been making military insignia for members of our armed forces for almost 40 years and I think I have been stiffed once by a customer in all that time.

I like your style, Bob.

All the best

dave C

DaveC2 and Wade Patton,
Thank you both for the favorable response to my opinions of "Pay and wait and wait and no satisfactory response"to inquiries.
It's possible that ongoing bills (debts) will cause the "need"for money up front.....maybe. Runar mentioned sending a fair sum
to some outfit in England and getting no response as to when or where the parts are.That is NOT a oood business method or ethic.
Helmut Mohr in Germany said that under German law no business debt can run beyond 30 days without permission from the person or
business it's owed to. Maybe the Brits have a similar law.
We are fortunate in having no debts at present that would require us to worry or be evasive or have to go back to work for
someone.Liabilities that exceed assets are not a good thing and maybe slow delivery of parts and pieces is somehow tied to thisand I hope all this can be reconciled without hard feelings or legal actions being brought.

Bob Roller

DaveC2, My style is just me.Maybe it's abrupt but it reflects me like a mirror
and the locks I make tell the buyers what I think of them.
I got shafted once by a guy in Florida whose check bounced and his girl friend
accused me of hiring two thugs to beat the $#@* out of him and I told her I didn't
work at that low level and she needed an upgrade on he choices in boy friends.

[blackley]

...
Paying in advance is a mistake and ACCEPTING advance payment is an even bigger
one.

Bob Roller

Most excellent point Mr. Roller. I too think it is VERY important for folks going into business, who want to keep their names unsullied to understand this.

and on the other subject, maybe if I hit the lotto* I can hire some folks to guy buy out that shoppe and get it sorted and put things right- according to business as expected by reasonable prudent persons.

*remind me to buy a ticket. 

Hi, An issue raised there that is without question a extremely valid one.
We (as many know) have operated in that fashion for years, mainly as it was the only option in the way our banking and transaction apparatus would work, payment with order. Great if everything is in stock of course, and parts can leave within a few days. If not however it is a problem.
IT HAS caused no end of problems, not to mention friction and some bad feeling when it does not work out.
After all, it is hard earned funds that have been spent, and something has to be forthcoming in a timely manner.

I appreciate Bobs point, but also there are times when of course a part or parts are bespoke to a individual, thus if there was no security that the order would stand, it may not be a option to sell to others.
Albeit, less common I guess.
So yes, paying upfront for most things to an unknown company may be a concern for the standard catalogued item.
We have obviously realised that the main issue with any such order is the importance of pre-payment, as opposed to any delay or similar.
Also of course, communication is paramount, another slippery slope in the past for us.

We introduced PayPal recently to our payment options, but even if we allowed part payment for orders, it only allowed for a few days before the balance was released back to the customers account.
On other words, a order requiring of our 'casting process' to complete it, would obviously be well beyond that paypal time limit for requesting the balance of the payment.
Paypal also is attractive to many as it does lend a confidence in safety of funds.

With that we have now introduced another option to our payments, oddly enough is not taken up that often, but it would allow the order to be placed, then we would contact for payment when it near completion.

Our website is under construction behind the scenes, the present one will be ongoing in the meantime, but the new one will hopefully be a little more streamlined in regards payment options etc. Also with the the new 'whizzed up' ability to access it on small screen devices and still read it! Not to mention a load more parts, as we only presently show off about 1/4 of our wares.
You would think that after 49 years we would have it all on show by now really, wouldn't you!

[Bob Roller]

It's still  trying to do business from an empty shelf.Being 82,a two year wait might be of zero benefit to me
and I'll stay with what I can get.I started using the externals from L&R several years ago for their small Manton,Durs Egg
and Ashmore and have had NO trouble with the quality or availability of these parts.Also I've used when available the
externals from the Chambers Late Ketland and again,NO problem but due to heavy demand they are not readily available
and I am glad that Jim and Barbie are selling more than they can make.I have no interest in reviving the old Chet Shoults
Ketland or another Ketland variant that I once made for the so called "flint Hawken".I thought about the variant @300$ but
decided against it.
The pictures of exoticly styled locks can arouse the desire to try to make them but if the components are not readily available
then why bother?

Bob Roller

[blackley]

It's still  trying to do business from an empty shelf.Being 82,a two year wait might be of zero benefit to me
and I'll stay with what I can get.I started using the externals from L&R several years ago for their small Manton,Durs Egg
and Ashmore and have had NO trouble with the quality or availability of these parts.Also I've used when available the
externals from the Chambers Late Ketland and again,NO problem but due to heavy demand they are not readily available
and I am glad that Jim and Barbie are selling more than they can make.I have no interest in reviving the old Chet Shoults
Ketland or another Ketland variant that I once made for the so called "flint Hawken".I thought about the variant @300$ but
decided against it.
The pictures of exoticly styled locks can arouse the desire to try to make them but if the components are not readily available
then why bother?

Bob Roller

Bob,
I agree, if one can acquire elsewhere off-the-shelf, then I would certainly do the same, assuming quality was as I wanted, who wouldn't.
As for the 'Business from a empty shelf' - we have a huge stock of items here, never the parts you want though are they!!
I am sure I speak for  TRS ect, and also a point raised by KC a while back, that having a large product range brings on its own issues of stock replenishment, although some clearly manage it relatively well.
We have often wondered if casting in house is the right way, although after so many years it is the only way known to us I guess.
One of our problems?? is that a foundry attracts other forms of 'out work' such as  model engineering, medical etc where the small batch option is still an option for us to offer, not quite so with some of the larger caster companies.

Our aim at present ? is to work at stocking the most popular parts, not exactly rocket science I guess, however you would be amazed at what can take the focus away from the 'blindingly obvious'.
One other thing of course, is that despite our skills, extreme hard work and many out of hours spent here, we are not necessarily the most prudent business people.
We are aware of our faults, and address it we will.

keep well

[heinz]

I have bought locks from Mr Roller over the years. He does business exactly as he says.  I currently have parts or some parts for about 4 rifles and 1 smoothbore with BOB Roller locks and triggers for all.

I have no experience with the rifle shop.  I have good experiences with orders from Pecatonica, Log Cabin,

I recently built a rifle from a Kibler Kit. They are well worth the price and the best parts and inletting I have worked with in any kit or precarved

[oldtravler61]

  This is my opinion only. If it takes two years or more to get your parts. The supplier had little intentions of sending you the parts in the first place an should refund your money !
   Before you order a custom firearm seriously check out their references. Long time ago 20 years. I ordered a custom rifle. Sent a down payment but never received the gun!  The builder has since passed on.
   Now I build my own. So if I want it done I have to do it...! There are excellent honest builders out their that I would not hesitate to order a gun from or anything else.  All the builders on here I would not hesitate to order from.
   But like I said this is just my opinion. Also I'm really frugal as my friend Duprey says ..(cheap) Jack's a nice guy but I know what he meant.
     Oldtravler

[WadePatton]

While I certainly do NOT envy anyone who endeavors to put it right, and I MUCH appreciate every unique supplier in our narrow and tiny field of interests, I do not accept that it cannot be done because of the volume or variety or combined manufacturing/retailing under one company.  I don't because there are plenty of other examples of retail and manufacturing with vastly more complex inventories and processes and the successful ones have sorted out a way to make it happen.

Sure, most of them are not in the same field, but parts numbers and inventory management let them keep a reasonable understanding of WHAT they have and WHEN they can get it to you.

We might think of Mouser Electronics or McMaster Carr on a huge scale (with global sourcing and distribution/support). I just cannot swallow the "lots of parts" argument.  On the small side, I have a bro with an automotive parts house.  They purchase from a myriad of suppliers, provide on-site services, maintain a retail outlet, delivery service and sell at retail and jobber pricing.  I saw this company (it started on a parts-delivery truck) go from index-card type inventory system with paper catalogs, to fully digital and business is still growing for them. I helped transfer inventory from the card-system to the first program my pal tried to adapt to parts-house use (after years of battling the "old guard"-his Dad founder, now 91 and still working limited hours).

Two or six systems later, it's all integrated (some paper catalogs are in the back room for archaic reference) and they'll get you whatever you need for a 1953 Packard, a 2016 F-150, a farm tractor, industrial equipment, or your lawnmower.  Not many "auto-parts" houses like that.  But it -can- be done.

I do get that manufacturing in-house adds a level of complication most folks don't deal with these days. I'm an ideas guy (what box?). I'll be glad to help in private with possible solutions because I respect and support the idea to keep more options available to more folks who want to participate in this field of interest. Just holler. 

Or I'm sure there are consulting firms out there who can assist putting things into order. Best of luck with it.

[SingleMalt]

First, I'll say that I've never had a complete kit from TRS.  I have, however, had castings from both TRS and Blackley's.  The castings from TRS were nice, but I felt that the lock molds were worn, or didn't have a good wax made.  They were usable, but not great.  The castings from Blackley's were very, very nice.  Sharp, crisp lines and no surprises.  Simply a pleasure to use.  The stock is the relatively easy part to fabricate yourself.  Even the barrel is in many cases a phone call away.  Lock castings, trigger guards, and butt plates are a different story.