Forge welding help needed

[Mark Elliott]

I am having a devil of a time getting the rear extension forge welded to the grip rail on an East TN guard.   I have made a few successful welds, but for one reason or another was not happy with the result.   I think I am working on the fourth guard; I have lost count.  On this guard,  I can't seem to do anything right that I have been able to do before.  Particularly,  I can't seem to get a good weld between the grip rail and rear extension.   I just want about a 1/8"-1/4" weld in parts that are about 1/2" wide and about 3/16" thick.  I assemble the parts with a rivet and the rivet is being welded into the parts top and bottom.   I am just not getting a weld in the middle between the two parts.  I am using plenty of borax (it think there is a little sand mixed in) flux.   I am getting the forge hot enough to easily weld two 1/8" test rods.   I have tried welding on a little anvil right in front of the forge port and on the big anvil a step away.   The result are always welds that look good but fail a while later.    I usually weld at least twice for good measure.  I think that maybe I am just not hitting the weld hard enough on the first stroke or two, but I really don't know.   I don't have any problem with larger welds or practice welds.    I just cant' seem to make it happen on this guard when it counts.   Any suggestions from experienced blacksmiths would be appreciated.   

[mark brier]

A lot of times if it is new steel that you purchased it has to high of a copper content to forge weld.
Mark Brier

[Dave Patterson]

I'm no trainer, but spent a lot of years forging; can't stick weld to save my life, but can forge weld in my sleep.  I have several thoughts.

*  What steel are you using?  The more "other" metals included, the less likely welding techniques used on common steels are to work; welds will often "stick"... but it's not truly welded.

*  Are you sure you're getting your overlaps good and clean, prior to fluxing?  Pretty hard to do, when the two pieces pre-riveted in place... which is almost necessary on pieces that small and hard to keep aligned from forge to anvil.

*  Flux sounds good:  borax, with a little sand, and maybe some iron.  A little flux is good, but too much can complicate the whole process.

*  Forge welding is the process of melding two near-molten pieces of iron or steel together:  forceful hammer blows can ruin the whole deal, causing the two pieces to spring apart, just at the split-second they should be flowing together.  Might try a little, uhhhh... push, with the hammer, and see if that makes a difference.  Just use the hammer to simply press the two overlap into place; let the hammer sit for a couple seconds.  Never know:  that just may do it, right there.

*  Another OIT an old commercial blacksmith taught me several decades ago:  pre-heated anvil face, hammer head, and tongs are your friends.  Anything your pieces to be welded will touch during the welding itself should be a little too warm to leave your hand against.  It doesn't actually help you weld:  but it prevents any unexpected drawing of critical heat from your work just when you need that heat in your work. 

A slick way to preheat your anvil face is to use a good chunk of flat strap iron:  heat that in your forge, and lay it on the face while you're prepping your work piece(s).  Pull it off just prior to pulling your work from the forge.  Setting your hammer head on that pre-heater while it's on your anvil, gets that done as well, without scorching your hammer handle.

* My last thought of the moment:  make a few mockups, and try some different heats and techniques.  More heat; less concussion; etc.  You don't need to replicate the entire TG; just the same thickness, angles, and curves that you're gonna be welding on your finished piece. 

 

[John Archer]

Hi Mark,

I've never been able to forge weld two pieces of steel that have been riveted together....I wasn't able to get the interior, joining surfaces hot enough without burning the outside. It may be done I suppose with a good grade of wrought iron, bringing the heat up slowly....however I've never tried it. Try traditional forge welding with two separate pieces. You do not need a hard hammer blow...more like a soft blow letting the hammer rest on the steel...don't lift it. Bend the iron/steel after it's welded together
If you are trying this with hot rolled steel A36...forget it.

John

[Hungry Horse]

My SMR guards all have their grip rail, and rear extension made in one piece, by folding, and fagot welding the extension, and then shaping it. I draw the forward end of the grip rail square, drill a slightly undersized hole in the trigger bow, use the square end of the grip rail to square up the hole in the bow, and rivit it down tight. No brazing needed.

  Hungry Horse

[Mark Elliott]

I am using new 1018 steel.    I have welded it in other types of triggerguards/welds.   I rivet all my welds except for the guards where the rear extension and grip rail are formed by folding over one piece of steel, but the thinner stock seems to weld better than the thicker.  I have made my parts extra thick to allow for burning off about 1/16" of steel.  Maybe that is making my problem worse. 

[Hungry Horse]

That’s a possibility Mark, I use plain old mild steel, usually 1/8” hot rolled strap, and 1/4” square stock. I have literally made a guard out of this stuff without heat, or welds, of any kind. It cold forms amazingly well, it just faster if you heat it.

  Hungry Horse

[David R. Pennington]

Sounds like not hot enough. If it is hot enough to weld hard hammer blows are unecessary. You have gotten lots of good advice here. I would ditto just about all the suggestions. (If you can get your hands on some good wrought iron it will spoil you welding) Keep at it you will figure it out.

[Nordnecker]

You have a NC 2 burner forge, right? I have a similar one and have serious doubts about welding in it. It scales the metal terribly. The way the flame goes straight down makes noticeably hot and cold areas inside. In other words, it is not a reducing atmosphere inside. In my coal forge, a welding atmosphere only lasts 10 minutes or so and must be torn apart, cleaned and rearanged to continue. Welding wrought iron with coal and welding steel with propane is night and day different. A faggot weld or a split/slit/cut and bend aproach might work better.

[Mark Elliott]

I have a three burner NC gas forge.   The flames seem to be neutral, but I agree that I could have a better forge for welding.    I have been looking at getting another forge that has adjustable air burners, but I don't have the money right now.    What I did today was to put a couple of new welding bricks in the bottom of the forge.   That closed it up another 1/2" which should let it get a bit hotter.    My forge seems to be barely getting up to welding temperature these days.   I have to run it an hour to get to welding temp. 

Other than the temperature of the forge, I think the problem is that I am trying to weld two relatively thick pieces of metal that are riveted together.   I don't have any problem with faggot welds or touching a couple of rods together and welding them.   It is these riveted welds that give me a problem.   It seems that I have to burn off a good bit of metal before I get a good weld.   I am allowing 1/16" for burn off.

I made up a practice piece for tomorrow, and I have a good assembly to weld.   If these don't work,  I will make up an assembly out of wrought iron.  I use the 1018 because I can get any size I want and save myself a lot of forging.   If I use wrought iron then the smallest pieces I have are 1/2" square and I basically have work a 1/8"-3/16" thick strip out of that.   

[heinz]

Mark, are you cleaning the metal before riveting and making sure you have a good flux flow into the joint before getting to welding heat?  I must admit I am hit or miss on the gas forge and prefer the coal forge for welding.

[Mark Elliott]

I clean the joint with the belt sander and use a borax based brazing flux on the joint before I rivet it.   Then, once I heat the part to red,  I apply borax flux around the joint such that it runs down between the pieces of metal.  Whether it gets into the joint,  I don't know.   I flux the same way when I braze and that works. 

[Ian Pratt]

Try this Mark - rivet your pieces together tight at the center leaving gaps around the outside edge of the joint. You want to have the center of the joint close up first and leave room for slag etc to squirt out the sides. If you trap it you'll get a bad weld.
Speed more than weight on the hammer - use a small, light weight ball peen hammer on your first heat. Weld over a mandrel. First few strikes hit the joint dead center quickly as if you were heading up the rivet then flip your hammer and use the flat side to close the rest. Stop hammering and reheat as soon as you lose welding temp or all you'll do is thin your metal and make cold shuts.  Your 1018 will work fine.   

[Mark Elliott]

Ian,

That will be very helpful.   

Thanks,

Mark

[Hungry Horse]

Your getting some real good advice here. I just want to say in my experience it is harder to read the presents of a welding heat in a gas forge. I have no problem in my old coal burner, but really struggle with a friends propane forge.
 An old blacksmith once told me never make something out of two pieces that can be made out of one with a little rethinking. That advise has served me well.

  Hungry Horse

[Metalshaper]

Mark,

 not that I'm a great forge welder.. but what have you sanded with your belt sander before cleaning up your parts?? rank amateur, thinking if it had been used
on brass or other materials, you might be getting a contamination even if it looks bright and clean?  I would suggest, like Ian, to have the centers touching and the 'ground' surfaces
be relieved into a scarf of sorts..This should get the flux in deep where its needed and allow for the scale and junk to escape and the hammer shots are made..


Just thinking out loud..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[Craig Wilcox]

I learn more and more each day about our avocation, from reading the many requests for help and that help freely given.  To learn how our distant relatives did things each day, that we either take for granted today, or cannot fathom how it was done.
I have doubled or tripled my knowledge of forging, just from the responses to the original question.  Thanks to each and every one of you!

Craigo

[Hungry Horse]

I never buy fancy smancy flux. Plain old 20 Mulé team borax ( not the scented version) works just fine. I don’t use fancy alloys either, just plain old hot rolled mild steel, or wrought iron if I can find some of reasonable quality. Working in lower light when welding will help you find that sweet spot when the steel is most likely to take a good weld. And don’t be afraid to cold forge parts from mild hot rolled steel, it gives you a lot more time to think things out because you’renot Dealing with the heat factor.

  Hungry Horse

[Mark Elliott]

Thanks to everyone for all the great advise, including those who contacted me privately.   

I did some welding today.   I did a test weld with a couple of rods to make sure I was at welding temperature, then a practice weld of a grip rail and then the weld of my good grip rail and rear extension.  Once I was at welding temperature (it took nearly an hour to get there),  the two grip rail welds went smoothly using Ian's hammering advice.   I first hammered the rivet with the pein end of a 1 lb ball pein hammer,  put the piece back in the forge and then hammered the entire area of the weld with the flat end of the ball pein.    The hammering was done over a mandrel I had made in front of my forge port for welding grip rails to bows.  Hammering over a mandrel for this particular weld was a change.   In the past,  I hammered over a flat surface.   In any case, the results were acceptable.   It looks like I finally have a proper grip rail and rear extension assembly for a Gross guard.   Now,  I just have to rivet it to the bow I had already made.

Here are photos of the good grip rail and rear extension right after I welded them.






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[rich pierce]

You are one persistent fella. The iron didn’t stand a chance.

[Mark Elliott]

Rich,

I want what I want, particularly for a customer.    I also enjoy the blacksmithing even if it is frustrating sometimes.   

[Willbarq]

A lot of times if it is new steel that you purchased it has to high of a copper content to forge weld.
Mark Brier

oil?

[David R. Pennington]

Rich,

I want what I want, particularly for a customer.    I also enjoy the blacksmithing even if it is frustrating sometimes.

Happy to see your success Mark! I would most likely have burnt that spur off getting welding heat. I spent the whole afternoon recently learning how to fail on a project! My blacksmith mentor says nothing is wasted if you learn something.
Here is how I would tackle that project.

[deepcreekdale]

David,  that looks like a perfect solution. Like Mark, I spent the last weekend trying to forge weld a  grip rail with a thin piece of metal on my coal forge, without Marks success. Twice I burned the metal away trying to get it to proper heat. Seems like with your method you could monitor the weld heat much easier. I am not much of a blacksmith albeit a persistent one, although according to your mentor I should be a successful one as I sure have learned a lot from my mistakes.

[David R. Pennington]

See in the third illustration how the pieces are coming together in the center only. Like Ian said start the weld there with a ball pein or rounding hammer. This way the flux and scale are driven out the edges. By making from one piece no rivet is needed. The loop is easily cut later. Also I would orient it with thickest side down in the fire to protect the thin part ftom burning. That might not make any matter in gas fire though. Now the delicate little spur is forged after the weld is made.