Kibler Colonial: Period appropriate carving

[Iktomi]

 I just pulled the trigger on a Colonial longrifle kit in 58. I'd dearly love to have some carving on it, but I am basically clueless as to what type of carving work is typical for such a rifle. Does anyone have links or other resources they could point me to that I might study up on it? I have some wait time ahead of me before I get the kit, and I'd like to start practicing and see if I can get good enough to apply it to a rifle with confidence. I won't put chisel and gouge to rifle unless I'm sure I can pull it off and not make a mess of things. I'd rather leave it plain than bugger it up. I have some French and Claro walnut off cuts that I can fashion into faux buttstocks, wrists, and forends and practice on. I anticipate that if I do end up carving this rifle, it'll be a simple design and easy to execute.

[Scota4570]

Jim's site has lotst of pictures of his rifles.  There is lots of inspiration there.

[Shreckmeister]

The Rifles of Colonial America books

[Goo]

If you contact Kibler he might xerox a pattern for you and send it along with the kit.

[Scota4570]

Jim has a carving practice kit.  It includes a booklet, a casting of his carving, and a part of a stock to practice on.  IT is a very good place to start. 

[Iktomi]

Thanks for the replies. What I'm trying to do is get a broader overview of the range of carving done on an American Colonial period rifle from the 1760's and 70's rather than an example to copy. If I do carve, it will likely, and preferably, be something I have drawn up myself but true to the period.

[Elnathan]

Thanks for the replies. What I'm trying to do is get a broader overview of the range of carving done on an American Colonial period rifle from the 1760's and 70's rather than an example to copy. If I do carve, it will likely, and preferably, be something I have drawn up myself but true to the period.

I second Shreckmeister's Recommendation for Rifles of Colonial America

http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=7
http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=9

Also available from Track of the Wolf and other places, of course.

[smallpatch]

First of all, region or school this rifle represents will determine design. Determine that first, then look at examples from that area.

Have you done wood carving before?  Do you have carving tools?
This will be your biggest outlay of resources.
First you must decide whether to stab or v tool .
Lots to consider......
not trying to discourage, but consider.....
A well designed and executed, plain rifle will look better than a poorly carved fancy rifle.
Buy the books, learn what's appropriate first, then decide.

[Scota4570]

I am planning the carving phase of two Kibler Colonials.  I am not an experience carver, I find it overwhelming.  So many choices for design.  That is why I plan to copy some of Jim Kibler's work.  Someday I hope to be able to design my own, not yet.

To do your won, you need to learn to draw decent scrolls.  That is actually pretty difficult.  There are ways to cheat.  You can use drafting templates.  For instance Jim Kibler's scrolls are sections of 50* ellipses.  That looks very sleek.  I would never have figured that out on my own, many books talk about sections of circles and certain ratios. 

To start you can copy a design using rubbings or pictures  then transfer them with carbon paper.  Then  practice carving on scrap wood until you get something that looks good.  To look good you will need consistent technique.  It can be simple an naïve but is needs have a consistency.  You will probably want a selection of curved gouges to make consistent scrolls. 

James Turpin has video tutorials you could learn form too.  Touching and studying actual carving is invaluable.  That is why I suggest Jim's carving practice kit. 

[Iktomi]

First of all, region or school this rifle represents will determine design. Determine that first, then look at examples from that area.

Have you done wood carving before?  Do you have carving tools?
This will be your biggest outlay of resources.
First you must decide whether to stab or v tool .
Lots to consider......
not trying to discourage, but consider.....

 That's why I asked what is correct for this type of rifle. I don't want to be carving Chevy logos on a Ford

I've done sculpture in both wood and stone, got pretty good at it at one point, but haven't done any for a number of years. I need to augment my collection of chisels and gouges for this type of wood carving.

A well designed and executed, plain rifle will look better than a poorly carved fancy rifle.
Buy the books, learn what's appropriate first, then decide.

 I agree. If I don't feel competent to do a credible job, I will leave it plain.

[rich pierce]

Kibler’s Colonial rifle kit is truly a colonial period kit. That is the parts and architecture would be appropriate  for a 1760’s rifle, by my glance. The lock is English suggesting a Southern build, but then again one of the early Oerter rifles has a round faced lock of English styling, but made in Philly. I’m rambling but early rifles do not necessarily have predictable or “school” carving styles developed outside Christians Spring, and Kibler’s kit shows no CS influence. A creative builder could build it as a very early Lancaster rifle with typical Lancaster carving. Outside of that, any carving from that timeframe would be appropriate. RCA 19 for example has simple carving befitting that period. And looking South, the F Klette rifle or the Haymaker could serve as inspiration, with some creative backdating.

[Craig Wilcox]

When I was younger, my dad would have me practice on bars of Ivory soap.  Saved the shavings for my sisters, as it was a mild soap.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Craigo

[PPatch]

Baroque was in style from the mid 1600s' to around 1800 when Rococo become popular. So, the baroque style is most appropriate for your Lancaster. C and S scrolls, volutes, highly stylized leaves such as the acanthus leaf. Those are the basics for baroque styling. The lines are always either converging or diverging, there are no parallel lines in baroque. Note too that some late guns made in Lancaster show the Rococo influence, such as the G.S. Fainot rifle in our library.

Look in the ALR Virtual Library for examples of Lancaster style carving. The carvings of Jacob Dickert are a cut above imo.

There are a few tutorials on relief carving in our Tutorial section - worth a look for sure.

Draw C & S scrolls, volutes and leaf patterns until you have it down pat, and know every twist and turn. Come up with your personal variation based on the old masters, practice and practice drawing it. Then practice carving it on scrap maple that you have put a "gunstock like" curve on. If you don't have maple then use something else, I practiced on poplar, but it is a poor substitute. I did learn though.

dave

[Jim Kibler]

I think many of the responses have been great.  Rifles of Colonial is a great place to start.   There's nothing wrong with very simple carving to start.  I think lock moldings and beaver tails really help the looks of a rifle like this.  Next, some simple carving to deliniate the wrist and comb add a lot.  If you're just learning I'd definetely lean towards simple.

Our carving practice kit would likely be a big help to those just learning.  The instructional booklet gives some good direction and the carving cast provides a visual of what the finished product looks like.

In time, I may try to develope some patterns that I could include with the kits.  When just learning, the process itself is enough to tackle and it teaches you a lot about layout and design.

Thanks,
Jim

[Mr. Bubbles]

For your first few attempts it's usually best to emulate or copy an existing rifle or pattern than it is to strike out on your own with the idea of creating a whole new "school".  Another good book on upgraded carving is Schipper's book on Engraving Contemporary Firearms.  Those carvings base their patterns on originals, but then deviate on the upside to be more fancified. 

You will also find that raised carving takes longer to do, but in the end, is actually easier to execute well than good incised carving.  Particular for someone new at it.  The reason is that if your raised carving gets a squarish corner or an elbow here and there, that you can knock it back to get the proper shape.  With incised carving those same elbows are much harder to round out.

[Jerry V Lape]

If you are an inexperienced carver I would caution you hat copying Jim Kibler's patterns is a bit like a house painter copying Michael Angelo.  Jim's patterns are often quite intricate.  And if you are inexperienced get a couple Quaker stocks (practice pieces) and work on them until you are somewhat experienced - before  you make a $1500 gun into a $400 one.  Take a class from a master as that is cheaper than ruining several expensive stock blanks. 

[Iktomi]

 Good replies and sound advice. Thanks gents

 To restate, I will not attempt to carve this rifle unless I am confident that I can do a decent job of it. I've googled up some Lancaster carving images, and I suppose my first step is to start drawing. As noted earlier, I have plenty of walnut offcuts that I can fashion into faux gun stock parts, and I'm reading the tutorials that are posted in that section. My rifle won't ship for another 3 months or so, but even at that, I'm not in a hurry. I'm a pretty patient guy, and if it takes me some months to get a halfway decent handle on things, that's fine by me.

  I wish I were able to take a hands-on course, but I live clear on the other side of the country from where anyone who does this sort of thing teaches it, and with working full time I just don't see it happening any time soon. It will have to wait until I retire

[Ed Wenger]

Rick..., I agree with the Lancaster school choice, earlier the better.  Also, I think Jim’s kit would lend itself very well to a VA valley school such as Rockbridge, Augusta, or even early Winchester area.  I also agree with Jim that simpler is often better in regards to carving, especially with a piece such as this with excellent architecture.

You might want to take a look at the late Gary Brumfield’s website www.flintriflesmith.com., in addition to the RCA books mentioned.

 Hope that is helpful....

         Ed


          Ed

[Iktomi]

You will also find that raised carving takes longer to do, but in the end, is actually easier to execute well than good incised carving.  Particular for someone new at it.  The reason is that if your raised carving gets a squarish corner or an elbow here and there, that you can knock it back to get the proper shape.  With incised carving those same elbows are much harder to round out.

  That is particularly useful information. I had the idea in the back of my mind that incised patterns would be easier to execute, and that maybe it would be a good first step in carving. But your explanation makes perfect sense.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm an advocate of the 'less is more' school when it comes to first attempts at carving.  I'm posting an example of some carving that I would feel comfortable with on the Cplonial rifle project.  This is my Chambers (Mark Silver) Virginia rifle, and it remains one of my favourites.

[Iktomi]

I'm an advocate of the 'less is more' school when it comes to first attempts at carving.  I'm posting an example of some carving that I would feel comfortable with on the Cplonial rifle project.  This is my Chambers (Mark Silver) Virginia rifle, and it remains one of my favourites.

 Thanks for the great example. That's clean and simple, and looks very nice. "Less is more" hits home with me.

[TommyG]

Rick, All great advice from some very respected builders.  What I can share with you is my journey..  Just a couple of years ago I was where you are now.  I put together a kit, and decided to at least do some carving.  Well, needless to say, I ended up with the $400 gun!! I have a pic below - you don't even need a close up to see that it's all wrong.  But I learned from it, studied & practiced more and remembered my mistakes, followed advice from the great resources we have here on ALR and got my hands on some originals(I'm fortunate to live in Eastern PA). I am on build number three and at least now I am confident that my carving and design looks somewhat presentable(the Lancaster below).  The biggest advice I can give from one novice to another is SHARP tools, especially parting tools & gouges.  Chisels are a snap, V tools- a different story, they take as much practice to get right as the actual carving does. So, yes, you might end up with the $400 gun on the first one, but it will shoot just the same, and you will learn from it and evolve as a builder, not unless you plan on stopping at number one, but who does that?? 

[J. Talbert]

I couldn't agree more with Taylor's advice.

And that beautiful rifle says it all. 

Jeff

[Mr. Bubbles]

When you are doing your incised cuts, start with your pencil lines, and use your 1mm V tool to cut a very small and shallow scratch. 

[Martin S.]

When you are doing your incised cuts, start with your pencil lines, and use your 1mm V tool to cut a very small and shallow scratch.

OK, I have done some carving on Windsor chairs, volutes and such.  Not as fine as gun stocks, but I can do a nice looking volute when I take my time.

I have seen rifles and pistols with a carved line paralleling the barrel and ending with a scroll.

How do you get the line to stay straight as you carve?  Is there some sort of marking gauge type tool that is used?

Are there any videos on how to do this?