Author Topic: Silver soldering question  (Read 13448 times)

Offline pulaski

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Silver soldering question
« on: May 25, 2009, 03:29:09 AM »
Can someone explain silver soldering . How is it different from welding or regular soldering ?
Thanks in advance , Steve

California Kid

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 03:56:20 AM »
Soldering is a molecular or covalecent bond. Welding is the actual fusion or melting together of the metal.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 06:11:03 AM »
The Kid told you what soldering and welding are, but not what silver soldering is.  It's in the middle of the two descriptions.  It's actually called silver brazing where dissimilar metals are fused together.  Regular brazing uses brass filler rods, silver brazing uses silver bearing rods.

This is not to be confused with soldering which uses very small amounts of silver mixed with the solder.
Dave Kanger

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California Kid

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2009, 06:54:58 AM »
Brazing is still a bond but at higher temperatures, therefore stronger. brazing is not fusion.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 06:27:26 PM »
I beg to differ.  Soldering never approaches the melting point of the base metal.  You are basically plating the solder on the metals.

Brazing heats the base metal to molten and the rod is melted into it forming an alloyed joint.  When cooled, they are fused.  The brazing is not a surface operation at the point of connection.
Dave Kanger

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California Kid

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2009, 06:39:26 PM »
The base metal is not molten during a brazing operation

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 07:49:53 PM »
Quote
The base metal is not molten during a brazing operation
Then you are not talking about brazing, you are talking about sweating,as in sweating sights onto a barrel.  I have brazed umpteen body panels in collision and rust repair on cars, as well as joining copper AC lines with silver braze.  In all cases, the metals are molten and fuse together at the joint and I did it for over 30 years.  Further discussion will probably prove pointless.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
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Offline tallbear

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 08:48:14 PM »
The official American Welding Society definition of brazing

"Brazing
Brazing has historically been defined in many ways and is often confused with soldering. A defining characteristic is that the braze melts while the material(s) being joined do not. The distinction between brazing and soldering is somewhat arbitrary; brazing occurs at a higher temperature than soldering. One definition of brazing is “joining of two materials using a third, dissimilar material at higher temperatures than soldering.” While the exact temperature difference between brazing and soldering is often disputed, there are definite metallurgical reasons to use the 450 °C (840 °F) figure. This is the official American Welding Society definition.

Braze alloy is often used to define an alloy that flows in thin joints while braze filler metal is used for thicker joints and for gap filling."


Also“The American Welding Society defines brazing as “a group of welding processes which produces coalescence of materials by heating them to a suitable temperature and by using a filler metal having a liquidus temperature above 840°F (450°C) and below the solidus temperature of the base materials. The filler metal is distributed between the closely fitted surfaces of the joint by capillary attraction.” This definition serves to distinguish brazing from other joining processes of soldering and welding. Brazing and soldering share many important features, but the term “brazing” is used when the joining process is performed above 840°F (450°C), while “soldering” is used below that temperature. Brazing differs from welding in that in braze processing the intention is to melt only the braze filler metal and not the base materials. In welding, both filler metals and base metals are melted during the process"
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 09:18:18 PM by tallbear »

Offline Rolf

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 10:47:32 PM »
Yes, no and maybe. This is what I was taught in silversmithing courses:
It depends on what metals you are trying to join with soldering/brazing. When all metals approach their melting point, the clusters of crystals pull apart and create microscopic spaces which the solder is drawn into by capillary action.

Silver solder contains 50-70% silver the rest is mostly copper and zinc. Zinc lowers the solders melting point.

When joining silver, copper, copper alloys, this is what happens:
At the interface of the fluid solder and parent metal,  silver and filler metals from the solder are integrated into the solid metals Crystal structure. This gives a very strong bond. Everytime the solder seam is reheated (without remelting the seam)this process continues and the filler metals are diluted into the parent metal.

The metal in the seam becomes more and more identical to the parent metal. The seam becomes stronger and the melting temperature increases. Its this process than makes it possible to do filigree work like this powderhorn I made. It has about 650 separate parts, all joined with medium silver solder.

If you reheat a newly made seam to hard it will fail because the zinc boils away and makes gaps.

When joining steel/iron with silver solder you get the same process with micro spaces and capillary action, but the silver and copper are not integrated in the parent metals crystal structure. That's why and iron/iron silver solder seam is weaker than a brass/brass silver solder seam. Reheating and iron/iron seam will not increase strength and temperature tolerance.

An silver solder iron/iron seam is stronger than a soft solder(tin) iron/iron seam. This is mainly because the higher temperature makes more micro spaces in the parent metal and that silver solder is more fluid than soft solder.

Best regards
Rolfkt

Offline Rolf

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 11:22:17 PM »
California kid,
atoms in metals are joined together in crystalline latices,( not molecules) by metallic bonds . In a metallic bond, bonding electrons are delocalized over a lattice of atoms. Because of delocalization or the free moving of electrons, it leads to the metallic properties such as conductivity, ductility and hardness.

Covalent bonding is a common type of bonding, in which the electronegativity(= ability to attract electrons) difference between the bonded atoms is small or nonexistent. The atoms are bond together by sharing pairs of electron. Bonds within most organic compounds are described as covalent. Example, a molecule of methane is a distint unit made of 4 hydrogen atoms covalently bound to 1 carbon atom. There is no similar distint unit in a metal crystal latice.

Best regards

Rolfkt
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 12:01:32 AM by Rolfkt »

George F.

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2009, 03:47:14 AM »
I like to accent my brass patchboxes and inlays with silver. I have not had any problems brazing with phosperous copper 1/16"sticks,but when I used a more silver bearing solder sold by Rio-Grande, the silver ran into the brass structure, I filed a 1/16" inlay less than half it's thickness and the silver was still present in the brass. ...Geo.

Offline Rolf

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2009, 09:50:16 AM »
Hi, George, try number 20 low temp. silver solder. I use it to join brass/brass. It flows at 600 celsius and has a yellow color. When the brass and the seam tarnish, it's almost invisible.

Best regards

Rolfkt

Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2009, 04:32:34 PM »
try number 20 low temp. silver solder. I use it to join brass/brass. It flows at 600 celsius and has a yellow color. When the brass and the seam tarnish, it's almost invisible.


Rolfkt,
Where do you get that from. I checked on Rio-Grande  and couldn't find a #20
Thanks
Jim
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Offline Rolf

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2009, 10:27:57 PM »
I get my solder from a Norwegian jewelry supplier called Grenland Steinhobby.
It's call yellow silversolder NR.20
Rio has a similar solder in sheet form. http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/ProductPage.aspx?assetname=503052&page=GRID&category%7ccategory_root%7c126=Soldering+Equipment+and+Supplies&first_answer=166
Jugding from the flow temp, I guess it has about 20-40% silver.

I googled yellow silversolder and found http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=johronp4
This is almost same as what I use.


Best regards

Rolfkt
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 10:32:48 PM by Rolfkt »

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2009, 06:18:24 AM »
There seems to be a differing of opinions on this subject. I do a lot of Silver brazing and in actuality both opinions are correct. Some silver brazing does not alloy with the base metal but some does. Some of the newer silver brazing alloys actually fuse with the base metal. Although they are nor applied with enough heat to melt the base metal a eclectic action takes place along with the flux that makes the silver alloy fuse or alloy with the base metal and some of the joints are actually stronger than a weld.  You all might want to look up on the Silvaloy website and study up on some of them.
   Dave Crisali, who is a member of this forum and a rocket scientist is very much up on these processes.
   As for the diference between soft soldering and silver brazing goes, the standard in the industry is this -- any solder that melts below 840° fer. is soft solder and any solder that melts above this is considered Hard solder.  The lowest melting silver solder that I have found melts at about 1145° fer and flows at 1250° fer.  As with all solders the flux should be matched to the application, process used and the alloy.
    .   Silvaloy 45  is about the same thing rolfkt is referring to. Silvaloy 45 is 45% silver. I have recommended it on this forum before for brazing brass.  Don't breath the fumes. It contains cadmium.   Small amounts are not to dangerous unless you live in California. In that case it will kill you or give you cancer. Everything gives you cancer but only if your in California
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 06:31:05 AM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

California Kid

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2009, 06:37:23 AM »
Californias politicians have the cancer.

northmn

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2009, 03:59:41 PM »
California's politicians have the cancer.

Generally most feel the politicians are the cancer.   
I guess I would like to tap experiences concerning relative strengths.  for instance I have used 50-50 lead tin with very good results for things like thimbles to ribs and even underpinning lugs on smoothbores.  It is easy and flows so well.  Sometimes you do not have to "tin" with it.  But I have a project where I want to solder a sling attachment to the thimble and the thimble to the rib and have concerns about strength.  There I have been looking at a silver solder. Silver solder is less noticeable than brazing.  I brazed one up like this on a rib (using the common braze rod)  and managed to warp the rib which caused certain alignment problems.  Soft solder will hold a large joint but will it hold if used say to hold the thimble on the rib for a sling arrangement (English sporting rifle style)?

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2009, 05:16:12 PM »
Californias politicians have the cancer.

Boys, lets keep it to soldering/brazing, please.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2009, 06:15:38 PM »
I would not trust soft solder to hold a sling mount.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

California Kid

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2009, 08:29:51 PM »
California's politicians have the cancer.

Boys, lets keep it to soldering/brazing, please.
Sorry Acer couldn't resist, just frustrated with the state of affairs here.If I could afford to move, I'd go up there where Jerry lives so I could learn to engrave better! HA HA

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2009, 03:30:26 AM »
May I try to make it simple?

Modern welding involves actually melting the base metal. Almost always, you add a little filler metal (the weld rod) which also melts and fills in the gap.

Brazing and soldering are both pretty much like gluing the joint, except some metal is used for the glue.
For our gunsmithing discussion that braze filler metal is usually either a copper alloy or a silver alloy (when Pratt & Whitney or General Electric build jet engines they use a fancier "braze" metal which has neither copper nor silver in it)
The main difference between soldering and brazing is the temperature at which it is done. You gotta pick some temperature for the definition, and as Tallbear said, the American Welding Society picked 840F (450C)

Until recent decades when people began to fear lead, solder was usually some mixture of lead and tin. The lowest melting point lead-tin solder is 60% tin and 40% lead. Then if you want something that melts a little higher, there are solders which are mostly tin, like maybe 98% tin, with a couple percent of silver in them, or else a little antimony.

The strength of a solder joint, as well as a braze joint too, depends not only on what "glue" or filer metal you used, but also how tight was the joint. A gap of any size makes it weaker. A very tight fit, maybe even a press fit, and the joint will be much stronger. You really don't need to allow any space for that filler metal, it will suck into a very tight joint by capillary action. A thin solder (or braze) joint is stronger than is the solder itself. The reason is mechanical, nothing to do with the metal alloying into the base metal. That alloying will not happen when soldering steel. I personally do not know whether solder alloys with copper or brass base metal to any significant amount.

Now for brazing. We call it "brazing" because for the last several thousand years some variety of "brass" was melted in to make the joint.
Brazing may also be done with just plain copper metal. I have a 16th century Italian wheel lock (lock only, sadly) with a copper brazed joint in it. The torque converter in your favorite Hupmobile is made out of mild steel sheet pieces which have been copper brazed together at a process temperature of about 2050F (1120C).
Silver brazing uses, obviously, a braze metal based on silver. Some copper, tin and other alloying elements are added to get the melting pont you want. In whatever state you dwell I would not suggest breathing cadmium. The good news, of course, is that it may just cause a quick heart attack rather than slow nasty cancer.
Silver braze is not going to alloy into any steel part that you braze.
But if you are brazing copper or brass parts together then some mixing may happen, as has been discussed above.Those alloying additions such as tin, etc, that lower the braze meltling point may diffuse into the base metal a little bit. This leaves the finished braze joint with a higher melting point than originally.
There is also something called "braze welding", where the braze rod is used in a welding machine and the steel base metal may well also melt, as an earlier note discussed with respect to autobody repair. I doubt that you are going to use braze welding techniques in gun building.

MODERN welding involves melting the base metal. Old fashioned FORGE WELDING, by which gun barrels blanks used to be made, does not involve melting at all.

I have some experience with these processes, having had to deal with them as a metallurgist since Kennedy was pres.

California Kid

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2009, 09:17:33 AM »
JC Kelly. In reference to braze welding are you talking about using a carbon arc torch that uses two carbons to make the arc and the filler rod used as in brazing with a torch or is the filler rod used like a welding rod would be?

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2009, 07:06:28 PM »
California K—OK, to get my brain in gear, strictly speaking “braze welding” is just brazing but it uses either an arc or oxy-acetylene flame to get the heat. It is not SUPPOSED to melt the steel base metal.
Braze welding may be done by:
1. Heating with a carbon-arc, then using a copper alloy filler rod plus flux. I did this without benefit of any instruction when rather young. A klutz like me could easily have melted the steel along with the copper/brass/bronze filler. My, that arc was bright. And hot.
2. Heating by oxy-acetylene, also using a flux. Damnifino why that would be considered any different than just plain torch brazing.
3.MIG (a.k.a. Gas Metal Arc Weld), an arc welding process using as spool of weld wire and inert gas shielding, usually argon or argon-whatever mix. Braze welding steel or cast iron is done, I believe, with a silicon-bronze wire. Braze welding by any of these means is a good way to weld or weld repair cast irons. The bronze in the joint is not all that strong, but cast iron is not supposed to be stressed too highly.
4. I have no personal experience here, but I would not be surprised if people also take covered bronze electrodes and “stick weld” with them as if they were welding with a steel electrode. Hopefully the steel does not also melt, but some of the bronze filler rods can take a little dilution with iron OK.

Please do not torch braze, or any braze, cracks in a gun barrel.They eventually come apart.

California Kid

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2009, 11:09:00 PM »
I tried a carbon arc torch years ago. hard to control the heat. I found a torch easier to control.
Lincoln used to sell one for their buzz box welder. I think the idea being that you could braze without having an aceteylene torch.

Offline frogwalking

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Re: Silver soldering question
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2009, 07:23:58 PM »
So much for theory.  I have a .20 gauge bbl, made from the famous leaded steel.  I need to solder three under lugs onto it, and a sterling front sight.  The lugs need to be strong, the sight pretty.  All I have to heat the bugger with is a propane or mapp torch.  I have soldered hundreds of copper pipe joints, so am not a total neophyte.  Please give me some good direction, including what to use and where to buy it.

Thanks

Frog
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