Your Opinion on This Southern Rifle MANY PICS ADDED

[bluenoser]

Hi,
It's been a while since I have been active here.
I am considering the purchase of an "original" Southern Mountain style rifle and could use a little guidance from those more knowledgeable in the field (and that casts a pretty wide net).  I am reluctant to post more than this single photo since I do not have permission to do so.


The rifle is a percussion 32 cal, walnut full stocked with a roughly 36"straight bbl. It has a forend cap and entry thimble with a relatively long tang, a heavily crescent butt plate and the two piece tang extends up and over the comb.  With the exception of the way the lock is mounted, it has all the characteristics I would expect to see on a Southern rifle and appears to be appropriately aged.  I am confident I would be able to identify artificial aging.  I know I have given little to go on.  My question is: has anyone else come across a verifiable Southern rifle with the lock held in place by two wood screws (no lock nail)?

Your guidance will be greatly appreciated and I will post pictures if I follow through with the purchase.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... I've only looked at around 200+/- southern (mostly original Tennessee) rifles in the past 55 or so years,.... never seen this method of attatching lock,... is there no lock bolt at all,... ,... nice looking triggerguard and triggers, However,.... Regards,...CCF,....

[bluenoser]

Thanks for your response CCF.  I have handled only a few Southern rifles and studied photos of many more - most thanks to ALR.  I too have never seen a Southern rifle, or any other longrifle for that matter, with the lock secured in this manner.  There is no lock bolt.  I was just studying the photos, and the rifle appears to be very well made.  a slim build with nice tight inletting with the exception of a few areas, such as around the breech,  where one could expect things to loosen up over the years.  The forearm is very slim, as it should be, and the ramrod appears to be about 2/3  exposed.  These are areas where, in my opinion, later recreations frequently miss the mark. The butt plate has the long return one frequently sees on Southern rifles and the tang extension is well fitted.  I suspect it might extend all the way back to the BP extension, but the photos I have only show it extending up and over the comb.  The trigger guard appears to be hand forged with some fancy file work and the buckhorn rear sight is set into a dovetail which has been raised at the edges with a chisel.
In my opinion, everything other than the method of mounting the lock suggests an original Southern rifle.

[Dennis Glazener]

Forward TG return is rounded like many E TN TG's and the style triggers are E TN but like others I have never seen that type of lock attachment. The heavy crescent BP sounds like E TN as well. Do you remember how the tang was shaped?
Dennis

[bluenoser]

Have made purchase and now have permission to post pics, so I have replaced the description with a pic of the tang.

[Tanselman]

I think it's a little risky to speculate on this lock, unless we can see the back side of the gun opposite the lock. I think the lock may have "problems." The hammer and tumbler screw look new to me, as does the side lug and nipple...and the alignment between hammer and nipple looks slightly off. The plate looks like a reworked percussion plate that has been filed down along the edges, made to fit the mortise, rather than a mortise made to fit the plate...which suggests a more recently mounted lock. If you look at the workmanship on the triggers and guard, it looks very good...better than the reworked lock plate with modern parts. I think it is important to show the back side view of the same area, so we really know for sure there is no scar or hard-to-see plugged hole from a rear attachment...before we accept this as a genuine front attached lock.  Shelby Gallien

[bluenoser]

Some very good points.  Thank you for taking the time to comment.
I too think the lock has likely been modified for use on this rifle, but don't, at this point, think it is a replacement.  I should have the gun in hand in about one or two weeks and will know better then.  I don't think the hammer has been replaced, but the tumbler screw does look new.  The gun was in use up until a few days ago and the drum and nipple were recently replaced.  The originals will be coming with the rifle.  As shown in the pic below, there is no sign of a lock bolt having ever been installed.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ...thanx for the additional photos,... please add one of the cheek-rest,... I've seen enough Unicoi Co, rifles that just from photos, I can give that call,... fine rifle,... maybe barrel shortened,... .... I have seen that "circle punch" decoration used by some BEALS guns, and by  Isreal McInturff, Jr., are there punch marks around bore on the muzzle-end,...?? ... also,.. could the "PH" on lock be an "RH",..??... there was a Reuben Hatcher in the area who was a gunsmith in the area in 1850, according to the 1850 census,.... If you do not have Dave Byrd's books,.... get them,.... !!!!

[bluenoser]

I apologize - I had intended to post the photo of the cheek-rest.

Failed to post this one too:

All the photos I have are now posted.  The rifle is in transit and should arrive in one to two weeks.  It will be closely examined on arrival and I will pay particular attention to those areas that have been queried.  I had considered the possibility of the barrel having been shortened, but presently consider it to be less than likely based on the current thimble spacing and the (current) lack of evidence one has been moved.  There does not appear to be any decoration at the muzzle.  Based on information provided by the seller, the lock does not have a fly or half cock notch and the set triggers are single lever.
I will have to look into David Byrd's books.

[Nordnecker]

I bet that gun originaly had 4 pipes.

[Molly]

John Painter, Haymaker Town, Botetourt County, VA is known to have used wood screws from the lock side into the wood and no lock bolt.  Two such works are pictured in Whisker's Gunsmiths of VA, second edition, pages 185 and 186.  I have the one on page 185 which is mis-identified as "Joshua Painter" and I have see the other one on page 186.  Painter worked from about 1830 "right up to his death" in 1900 per his obituary.   While certainly unconventional by most standards, both rifles have "worn well" and the locks are solidly in place.  My personal conclusion is that Painter found it effective but more so an efficient time saver in the process of making a rifle and probably priced those so made at a discount to the conventional lock bolt approach.  While I did not really like the one I own when I first saw it I have come to view it as a favorite, reflecting (probably) a quickly made low priced work for someone on a limited budge or who needed a rifle in a hurry....sort of the Ruger 10-22 of 1860.

No other features on your rifle reflect any Painter style but it does show that someone else in another part of the world also had a novel idea cutting the time and cost of production.

[bluenoser]

Nordnecker,
That is a possibility.  I will be able to investigate once it is in hand.  A rough calculation based on the photos would put the original bbl length in the vicinity of 42" if the spacing between the original upper and next lowest thimbles were the same as that between the entry and middle thimbles and 43" if the spacing between the original upper and next lowest thimbles were the same as that between the middle and now upper thimbles.  Those numbers would indicate it might be a strong possibility.

Molly,
Thank you for bringing that to our attention.  I, for one, was unaware there are other rifles with front-secured locks in existence.  The fact this rifle was still in use in 2018 with what appears to be the original screws and a lock mortise not beat out should be testament to the viability of mounting the lock with wood screws from the front.
Would it be possible for you to post a photo of your lock?

I have Kindig's, Bivins, Kauffman's and several of Shumway's books, but no books by Whisker.

[Molly]

Not the best photos but here it is.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Bluenoser, I looked through my notes last night and found an entry for rifle almost identical to yours.  It also had a screwed on lock with the same initials and the same distinctive "over the comb" tang.  It was in Pikeville, Tennessee (Bledsoe County) and the owner "inherited" it from his Uncle who had it since the 1960s when it was made.  It had a 38 inch straight barrel in .40 caliber. My notes mention very fresh punch marks on the muzzle; and that the barrel was shortened and the sights move back 3 1/2 inches in the early 1980s after his Uncle had stopped participating in local chunk shoots.

[bluenoser]

Molly
Thank you for posting the photo.  I can't say I have ever seen that hammer style.  I like it.

Sequatchie Rifle
That is very interesting - especially since it had the same initials on the lock.  It would be nice to know more about it.  I would expect a rifle of 1960's vintage to likely have a commercially available barrel and some other components.  Do your notes indicate anything about what it had for a barrel and other components?

[Molly]

Hammer style is common on Botetourt County rifles.  I have 4 originals and all are similar.  Your find is also very appealing.  Love that      l   o   n   g    tang! 

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I saw the Pikeville rifle when I first became interest in iron mounted East Tennessee guns. I remember the barrel looked very old and the rifle was in good shape. Thought it was much older than the owner claimed. I believed at the time it had been assembled from left over and hand made parts. Wish I’d photographed it. The sketches are rough. According to my notes, it had a straight barrel.

[bluenoser]

I am pleased to read you had that impression.  Based on what I have seen so far, I would have great difficulty accepting this rifle is sixty some odd years old.  Perhaps his uncle had it refurbished in the 1960's.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Another screwed on lock.

[Molly]

Somehow, that screw on lock has the look of a repair rather than an original method of construction....is that a bolt head peaking out the left side in the 2nd  photo?

[bluenoser]

I was thinking the same thing.  Hadn't noticed the possible bolt head on the opposite panel, but was going to ask if there is any sign of a lock bolt having once being installed.  The screw is about where one would expect a lock bolt to be.
I wonder what that other screw is.  One would think it would interfere with the tumbler and mainspring.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Yes, there is a very small lock bolt.

[bluenoser]

Have been thinking about the "PH" initials on the lock and doubt they have anything to do with the builder.  In my limited experience, builders rarely sign their work on the lock.  I believe the initials more likely relate to some previous owner.  Hoping to find something on the top flat of the barrel.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  .... was looking at this post again,....Tennessee rifles are my "thing",... Sequatchie might be on to something here,... try to examine the mark on the lock again to see if maybe the leg of letter "R" may be worn off the first letter,... might be "RH", not "PH",... my theory,... Rudolph Holt was a gunsmith in Pikeville TN area in late 1800 - early 1900's,... he made "over-the-log" match rifles in the Soddy style,.... also know he did repairs & re-stocks, including work for Walter M. Cline,... you may just have a Unicoi Co., rifle, restocked & repaired by Rudolph Holt,.... mere speculation, of course, but a possibility,...... regards,... C C F,......

[bluenoser]

Sequatchie & C C F
I see where you are going with this and it seems plausible.  I expect to receive the rifle next week and a close examination might provide some clarity.
I do have a question:
If Rudolph Holt built rifles in the Soddy style, would it not be likely he would tend to follow the style he was accustomed to when doing a re-stock?  As I recall, the Soddy architecture differs somewhat from that of Unicoi rifles - particularly in the tang treatment and the cheek side of the butt.  If the answer is yes, he would tend to follow the style he was accustomed to - and he did indeed work on this rifle, perhaps his work was more or less limited to replacing the lock and shortening the barrel if it was, in fact, shortened.  That might help explain why the rifle appears to be wearing a lock with a reshaped plate.
As always, your comments are much appreciated