Collapsing interest in ML !

[Dave K]

Well, like I mentioned in a previous post, it isn't just Ml'ing that is losing participation. I see it in almost every outdoor activity. I think it has come down to time and money. Like yourself, many have no interest in taking the time or the money to travel to participate. Work schedules of both spouses, kids in sports which seem to be more important then it was when I was in sports. I regret where this is all headed, but how do I stop the train?

[hanshi]

Something no one seems to have brought up is the fact that schools no longer teach history.  And even the propaganda masquerading as history discards truth in favor of political correctness.  Most HS students don't know what D-Day was; I know for I've asked a few.  You'd think history would be set but it changes with a puff of the PC winds.

Many of us grew up with images of Davey Crockett in our heads and were inspired to learn more about this pivotal time in American History.  Any mention of Revolutionary arms technology, white slavery, republic vs democracy, etc. is verboten in schools.  There is not much to kick start the current generations like we had.  Young people today are starting with a blank (or muddied) slate and need to be educated in the history that inspired our hobby/sport.  This lays the foundation for the fun stuff that comes later.  I think it may be more realistic to build our ranks by recruiting those already involved in shooting and hunting with modern equipment.  I may be mistaken but still think it is something to consider.

Of course this doesn't relieve those of us already in the sport/hobby from being as active as possible.  I just don't buy this "burned out" $#@*!  I do feel that perhaps too much emphasis may have been put on formal competition, rendezvous & other group activities as far as getting new ml shooters started.  This makes a great "next step" but can be intimidating to some beginners.  There are those who feel more confident in a smaller groups with friends or even just with one or two others.   Establishing skill "classes" and exploring other ways of leveling the playing field may also have it's value.  I post this as just a FWIW and nothing more.  There are others on this forum who know more about this than I do.

[George Sutton]

I believe the problem is the expense. I am not taking into consideration the individuals who make their own stuff or inherit stuff.
Just a young couple trying to get started.

Think about how much money you would spend if you were just getting set-up to go shoot at a rondesvous.

Gun,  $1000.00 for a decent flintlock, to whatever one wants to spend.

Clothes, $60.00 for a frock, $60.00 for pants. Leather leggings and moccassins $100-300.00. Does one need a coat$$$. How many sets of clothes???

Then come the tent and other camping equipment. $500.00 -$1000.00

Then all the other stuff we all carry$$$$. It is an expensive proposition for young people to break into this sport.

Sit back and think about how much you have invested in this thing. (This is where my first million went)

I think clubs should focus on youngsters and provide them with some of these things in hopes that the sport will grow.

Maybe this site is willing to be  a distribution point for donations to youngsters wanting to get into it.

I for one have plenty of stuff I would be willing to donate for this cause.

Centershot

[40Haines]

I am really surprised no one has mentioned a big reason for the decline:  COST !!!!!

It costs close to $1500 to get started and that's a big chunk of change.

A box of round balls is $15, if you can find em and you have to buy powder  in bulk lots (Hundreds of dollars) to have any.

Where is a young teenager going to come up with that kind of money ?

If you are a young family man still buying diapers, momma ain't going to let you buy no $1000 smoke pole.

Truth be known, most of us got started with CVA,TC,Lyman and such and those guns were very affordable.

If you want some sticker shock, look at what they want for a new TC hawkin.

If you are a kid who somehow came up with a Flinter - where are you going to shoot it?

This country is changing, 30-40 yrs ago you could shoot most anywhere ---- NOW

I drive 53 miles each way to shoot my MLs - That's a pretty good pedal for a kid - not to mention having a rifle strapped to his back.

Seems to me, most of the GOOD shooters I meet shoot 3-5 times a week in their back yard and travel to compete.

As far as competitive shooting goes, my archery club got heavy into 3D shoots (money maker) and attracted some of the best shooters in the state to come in and kick our butts.

Our local members didn't mind having their fellow members whoop em, but to have strangers show up 30min before the shoot and be gone 15min after it was over, with all the goodies week after week, was a deal breaker.

We almost lost the club cuz of arguing over making money or having fun.

I would have to agree with one of the other posters, that nobody knows we (MLers) exist.

We need to be @ local fairs, gun shows, scout meetings, schools, and we need to do it NOW !!!!!!!

Or surely we are doomed.

IMHO

[doug]

     I would have to agree with 40Haines on the expense issue; most western Canadian rondyvous allow people to live in tin town and compete with no or partial costume.  There are definitely bulk produced percussion rifles around second hand for $300.  While not much to look at, they are suitable to get a person started.  I started with no costume and an Italian kit gun and have never stopped improving and upgrading as best I can.  I think the important thing is to put the fun back into the sport and get away from large prizes which are won by the same few every time.  Several months ago there was a discussion about one or two fellow who went to a  turkey shoot and took all but one or two of the turkeys shot for.  They appeared to treat it like a business.  Certainly they were extremely good shots but how many here would bother competing the next year under those odds?

cheers Doug

[Roger Fisher]

     I would have to agree with 40Haines on the expense issue; most western Canadian rondyvous allow people to live in tin town and compete with no or partial costume.  There are definitely bulk produced percussion rifles around second hand for $300.  While not much to look at, they are suitable to get a person started.  I started with no costume and an Italian kit gun and have never stopped improving and upgrading as best I can.  I think the important thing is to put the fun back into the sport and get away from large prizes which are won by the same few every time.  Several months ago there was a discussion about one or two fellow who went to a  turkey shoot and took all but one or two of the turkeys shot for.  They appeared to treat it like a business.  Certainly they were extremely good shots but how many here would bother competing the next year under those odds?

cheers Doug

Well I guess I'm guilty!   But it took a $#*! of a lot of years building my own, experimenting with patch - ball - powder combos, practice shooting shooting and more shooting and I figure I applied my old self to the game including starting and keep 2 clubs going in the black - whatever good scores I manage after a lot of struggle I feel I have earned.  As said before you gotta pay your dues and competition drives the 'game'.  I will add that in most shoots we don't know how many matches we have won or placed in until the fat lady sings...! All we can tell is if we shot well, good, fair or rotten as the shoot goes on.   At my age I intend to keep pounding so long as my body and the law allows!  We do need to try to keep the game going by donating prizes to the shoots, carrying shoot fliers with us, talking up the sport to all and sundry that show up to look us over.  I have no other cure; but sure wish I did!

[hanshi]

Cost is one huge intimidating factor that I didn't specifically address in my post.  It was one of my considerations, however.  I don't reinact due to cost but other factors contribute to this.  I went to my first rondy a few weeks ago to shoot and had a roaring good time.  I think there are many like me who like the old guns and shoot/hunt with them for the sport, etc.  This is relatively easy; all you need is a gun and an inexpensive one will do, at least in caplock.  IMHO this scenario is the least demanding and intimidating for most new shooters & converts.  That being said, no one should pull punches.  Any and everything should be tried to bring in new blood and keep our sport alive and growing.  Personal and individual attention to tyros will pay dividends in the future.

[chuck-ia]

Back in the early 70s, maybe late 60s, our range or gun club had shoots with over 100 shooters, this was a little before my time so have not seen it, but hear about it. We have been having shoots for the past 8 years, the most shooters we had has been 17. We allow inlines with scopes, there are a couple young guys who shoot with inlines, and are darn good shots. I would guess the other inline shooters are afraid they might get beat by a traditional gun and just don't go. I think the inlines have hurt the hobby more than anything, a lot of people are not into history and have no interest in shooting a trad. style gun. On our next shoot we will give away a possibles bag and maybe a horn, we will have a drawing for that though. We want more of a fun shoot than a competitive shoot. We will post who won the shoot, but prizes are going to be cheap.

[T.C.Albert]

I dont know if its a "chicken or the egg" type thing, but there is absolutely no Hollywood inspiration for the good old frontier days...No Daniel Boone was a man every weekend...no Disney Davy Crockett grinnin' bars at the theater ...no How the West was Won with uncle Zeb role modeling for us all...no more western series on the T.V...no more  "James Bowie James Bowie" theme songs singing in your head...shoot...there aint even any chuckle head Grizzly Adams talking to skunks...most of us grew up on that stuff...it probably went along ways towards keeping every one inspired till the M.L. bug really got ahold of us for good...

I think kids today in general totally have zero techno inspiration to ever even want to know about the past, let alone go through all the trouble of participating in it...guess the topic makes a poor video game and the action figures must be predicted to sell too poorly at Walmart.

I dont have any answers for it, but theres my two cents worth...
TCA

[rich pierce]

I'm not a competitive shooter.  I like building rifles and do enjoy shooting/plinking around with buds.  I attended some rondys and was a regular at Dixon's back in the 1970's and 1980s.  But building the rifles is what I enjoy most, when I have time.  If I did have more time to get out with my gun, it would be hunting not competitive shooting.

For me time plays an important role. Shoots are mostly on Sundays and I have responsibilities in my church.  I have other hobbies (I ride and race bikes a lot) and that takes a lot of my weekend time.  For me, it's easier to go to a state-run range and shoot when I do have the time.  This is just to sight in a new gun, practice before hunting, etc.

I am an OK natural shooter (w/o a lot of practice I'm OK is what I mean) so I probably could be competitive with focus and practice.  I saw some targets at a local shoot here in Missouri that would have been easy to equal.

Just saying, some folks are driven by the competitive shooting bug and for many others, the bug just never bit, or other activities and hobbies take precedence.  But the title of the topic (with all due respect, Roger) suggests that ML=competitive shooting.  It's probably an index.

I don't mind folks hunting with inlines etc.  I think it gives us a better chance to get seasons, the more participate.  If I do take up bowhunting deer again it will be with a primitive stick bow, cane arrows and trade points or flint points.  But I won't mind the folks shooting ultra-fast latest generation compounds and carbon fiber arrows.

[quigleysharps4570]

I started with no costume and an Italian kit gun and have never stopped improving and upgrading as best I can. 

That probably covers most here. 

[ronpardue]

How do you find out about matches.  I would like to participate more, but do not know of any shoots??  Why is there not a listing on this site about matches?

[Dave K]

Muzzle Blast has the dates for the club shoots and other shoots.

[Roger Fisher]

How do you find out about matches.  I would like to participate more, but do not know of any shoots??  Why is there not a listing on this site about matches?

Narrow it down a tad Ron!!  What part of the world are you from?  If in decent driving distance to Pennsylvania east or west for that matter I can see to it you get that information. And be glad to do it!

[Canute Rex]

One ML event that is thriving and growing up in my area (Vermont) is the primitive biathlon. A guy named Ray Saloomy up in Jeffersonville was bored one winter (about 14 years ago) and thought "Muzzleloaders and snowshoes!" Now there are about half a dozen in the northeast. I went to two last winter: Jeffersonville, with over 200 participants (At about 0 degrees F) and Manchester, with about 70 participants.

The competition is generally 9 shots at metal gongs spaced out over a 1.5 to 2 mile course. You get timed, and each hit counts as 5 minutes off your time. If you are a good shooter and a "gazelle" you can get a negative time. There's generally a rifle class, smoothbore, women, and an elder class. Some biathlons also have a non-timed class and an inline class. Most require wooden snowshoes, although historic attire is only recommended, not required.

That last factor is big. I am considering entering a rondy-type event, billed as pre-1812, but I am hesitant because I don't have all the 18th century gear anymore. I'm not going to invest in it to enter one or two events a year, and I don't want my shooting enjoyment ruined by being harassed as a "farb."

Biathlons don't cost much to enter and they are a lot of fun. I walk fast, rather than running, shoot reasonably well, and end up about a third of the way down. I do see some younger folks there, perhaps because general fitness is a big factor. You folks from Canada and along the snow belt should consider starting up your own events.

I think we have to face the fact that the serious ML crowd will always be small. The bicentennials (Civil and Rev.) gave the sport a boost, but that generation is aging. It is a complex, patient, craft-like practice trying to appeal to a species that tends towards instant gratification - and we are in an age of instant gratification. It is a messy, smelly sport in a society obsessed with cleanliness. It is also a time consuming sport in a society that has less and less leisure time.

[bryanbrown]

Roger

I would argue the "traveling hardcore shooters" are part of the problem.  Without a "masters" class of competition the new shooters see the same 4 or 5 folks win every shoot goes a long way to crushing interest.  And a traveling group can squash interest in an entire area.

 When I am organizing shoots I try to setup at least 3 levels of competition.  Juniors,  General and Masters Class.  Sometimes they are too small to do this, in this case I often ask some of the more experienced shooters to help mentor the line versus shooting to help the new guys.

When we all started in the hobby we pretty much all started with old, worn out or cheap pieces we wouldn't use today.  That a newbie has expressed the interest to buy anything is an ember that must be nursed into a flame.  Many reenactors make the same mistake, chasing off newbies in farby kit as not being perfect, rather than mentoring them to something better.  If we help these folks get the best out of thier kit they can and encourage them to look at, try and handle better kit we nurture them into a deeper commitment.  You cannot expect a person to spend more on a good firelock then then did on thier first car before they are addicted to the hobby.

Are young folks more instant gratification driven?  yep no argument there.  Focused on cars, girls and geegawas?  Absolutely.  Were we the same when we were that age?  I know I was.   We need to recognize the ones with that spark of interest and fan it into a flame.  Don't curse the darkness, light a flame.

In my Jaeger unit we encourage our members to build thier own arms.  At one point I was the only gunsmith in the group.   Now 6 not counting myself are building guns and gunsmithing.  Its like potato chips you cannot build just one.

As reenactors we are also encouraging the members with a series of shoots to start shooting live ball not just blanks at reenactment. 

Also a lot of clubs are word of mouth, and unless you bump into the right person you dont know when or where the shoots are.  Clubs need to use web based resources (like this site for example) to post Calendars and locations to "spread the word"  I lived in the Charlotte NC area for 10 years before I even found the club I joined locally even existed, no web presence, no listing in the phone book. Just word of mouth.

I've spent 3 years so far trying to run down dates and contact info for the French Lick Shooting club out near Ashville NC.  Still no luck.

Find the spark, fan the fire.

[Sam Everly]

Bryan you just did not ask the rIght fellow . French Broad Rifles . Asheville NC. My club , even though it is 100 miles one way for me to shoot .We shoot the 2nd and 4th saturdays every month. Contact Harry Chadwick at Hchadw1932@aol.com or phone him at 828-658-0706. Or ask me and i will try to get you a answer. There is the Western NC offhand championships in july 10-11-12th. and the fall primitive weekend in Oct.2-3-4th.       

[Roger Fisher]

Roger

I would argue the "traveling hardcore shooters" are part of the problem.  Without a "masters" class of competition the new shooters see the same 4 or 5 folks win every shoot goes a long way to crushing interest.  And a traveling group can squash interest in an entire area.

 When I am organizing shoots I try to setup at least 3 levels of competition.  Juniors,  General and Masters Class.  Sometimes they are too small to do this, in this case I often ask some of the more experienced shooters to help mentor the line versus shooting to help the new guys.

When we all started in the hobby we pretty much all started with old, worn out or cheap pieces we wouldn't use today.  That a newbie has expressed the interest to buy anything is an ember that must be nursed into a flame.  Many reenactors make the same mistake, chasing off newbies in farby kit as not being perfect, rather than mentoring them to something better.  If we help these folks get the best out of thier kit they can and encourage them to look at, try and handle better kit we nurture them into a deeper commitment.  You cannot expect a person to spend more on a good firelock then then did on thier first car before they are addicted to the hobby.

Are young folks more instant gratification driven?  yep no argument there.  Focused on cars, girls and geegawas?  Absolutely.  Were we the same when we were that age?  I know I was.   We need to recognize the ones with that spark of interest and fan it into a flame.  Don't curse the darkness, light a flame.

In my Jaeger unit we encourage our members to build thier own arms.  At one point I was the only gunsmith in the group.   Now 6 not counting myself are building guns and gunsmithing.  Its like potato chips you cannot build just one.

As reenactors we are also encouraging the members with a series of shoots to start shooting live ball not just blanks at reenactment. 

Also a lot of clubs are word of mouth, and unless you bump into the right person you dont know when or where the shoots are.  Clubs need to use web based resources (like this site for example) to post Calendars and locations to "spread the word"  I lived in the Charlotte NC area for 10 years before I even found the club I joined locally even existed, no web presence, no listing in the phone book. Just word of mouth.

I've spent 3 years so far trying to run down dates and contact info for the French Lick Shooting club out near Ashville NC.  Still no luck.

Find the spark, fan the fire.

Well said!!   Regards your first paragraph - Those hard core shooters are also generally the ones that set up and keep their home club or clubs going.  5 or 6 clubs in E Penna use a beginners match or matches for the newer shooters not the folks that have won first places in at least 2 offhand regular matches (we generally know who they are)
we call those matches the Marksman match or matches not to embarass the newer or the attaboy!  Agreeing with your statement further 'we' will introduce more of said Marksman matches per shoot!  That may help dunno

[doulos]

no 1 cost
I have to agree with those who say "cost " is the biggest factor..  I started muzzleloading as a young father who worked 2 jobs and wanted to add time to his deer season.  At the time patched roundball was the requirement for that season. So I bought the cheapest 1-66 twist I could find. These style affordable massed produced guns are far and few between. Companies produce whatever sells.

no2 less hunters
   Most states permit inlines in their extended season and most muzzleloaders here buy them to extend their season.  They have no interest in renactment  and neither do I or the muzzleloader shooters I know.  They are hunters first before muzzleloading enthusiasts.  I hunted with inlines also because of their effectiveness over shotguns.  I went back to patched roundball because of my interest in older guns.
Its a fact they are declining numbers of hunters in many states.  Concentrate on improving these numbers and there will be a natural outgrowth into all other areas such as archery, muzzleloading etc.

[hanshi]

I don't see much that hasn't been covered but I'll add/reiterate: cost, lack of exposure, lack of mentoring, unfair or unlevel shooting competitions, the intimidation factor, the guns, travel problems, time (not so sure about this one), inlines, historical ignorance, jaded oldsters, legal & similar hurdles and what everybody else said. 

[Candle Snuffer]

I feel there are so many contributing factors to what appears to be a decline in interest in traditional muzzle loading, it would be hard to single any one or two particular things out.

With this said I do feel that we missed our opportunity to make this a "National" sport much like the Archery Federations around the world has done.  They have a huge following and they get the media coverage, in most cases home grown, but it's there.

A seasonal professional Traditional Muzzle Loading League IMHO is what is needed to get the ball rolling again in the use of these traditional firearms.  Reactive targets that spectators can enjoy seeing going over or swinging when hit - while hearing the delayed report of the hit is crowd pleasers in my oppinion.

In short, we need to start over and regroup the traditional thought to meet todays demand of immediate reation of what happens when a person shoots at a reactive target.  Paper targets are great, but they are also boring to watch when others are shooting at them and you're a spectator.

Get the public involved with seeing the action as it unfolds, not waiting until the target has been turned in, scored, and posted.

Who knows, dare I say ESPN might be a shot in the arm if the above action/reaction target approach was taken?  Perhaps?

I think where we as traditionalist have really shined is in the area of historical awareness of these traditional firearms and the lifestyle that was lived with, through the use of theses muzzle loaders.  Granted, some do a poor job of presentation, but others do a fantastic job at educating the public.  Unfortunately that is where it ends, when the tourist moves on to see something else.

Any sport (and traditional muzzle loading is no different) needs to be in the spotlight quite often to keep the interest peaked, and to keep its ranks filled with new comers.

I don't know if it's possible to take any other approach at this time to rebound the glory days we use to have and to sell our passion for traditional muzzle loading.  Something has to be done to get the public's interest sparked and geared back towards looking on and watching someone hit or knock over a metal target from say 200 yards that holds their (public) interest in awe.  Much like seeing a major league slugger put one in the upper deck...

Just some thoughts to maul over...

     

[Don Getz]

Muzzloading shooting matches are much like any other sport we might get into.......it's cyclic.   I have always found that
people get into a sport and enjoy it for a while, then it gets boring, or something else, and they no longer do it as much.
I was involved in an active archery club back in the 60's.     We bought a beautiful 80 acre piece of land for a range, big
tall pine trees, just a gorgeous place.   Built a nice club house, and ran all kinds of raffles to pay it off.  We were real active in the Northeast region of Pa., traveled to Sunbury, Bloomsburg, Benton, Nescopeck, and others to shoot....but, it
eventually died out.    The range sat dormant for 20 years.  About 10 years ago a group of guys got it started all over again, set it up to shoot full size animals.  After a short time, they would get 200-300 shooters on a week-end, paying
$6 a round, just to shoot the course.....NO prizes.  But, now it is starting to wane, not nearly as many shooters as before.
Something I disagree with, ...if you must be concerned about the prize you might win, you are shooting for the wrong reason.  I was always out for self satisfaction, trying to beat only one person..me.   Don

[Maven]

I've been reading this thread with particular interest as my club (Marbletown Sportsmen's Club, Stone Ridge, N.Y.) just sponsored its second Muzzle Loading Frolic today.  The first one drew 11 shooters, today's event only 10.  Some area clubs, e.g., High Woods Sportsmen, have BP shoots practically every month and I presume they are successful, but I've never seen an ad for their shoots in our newspaper.  We, on the other hand, do advertise and yet the turnout was abysmal.  Maybe people need to see more demonstrations of ML shooting to spark an interest in the sport?  It may also be that people are just too busy with the demands of work and "chores" to have much time left to participate in the sport.  Btw, in spite of the scarcity of shooters, we had a great time and possibly converted two club members into BP shooters to boot.   

[Roger Fisher]

I've been reading this thread with particular interest as my club (Marbletown Sportsmen's Club, Stone Ridge, N.Y.) just sponsored its second Muzzle Loading Frolic today.  The first one drew 11 shooters, today's event only 10.  Some area clubs, e.g., High Woods Sportsmen, have BP shoots practically every month and I presume they are successful, but I've never seen an ad for their shoots in our newspaper.  We, on the other hand, do advertise and yet the turnout was abysmal.  Maybe people need to see more demonstrations of ML shooting to spark an interest in the sport?  It may also be that people are just too busy with the demands of work and "chores" to have much time left to participate in the sport.  Btw, in spite of the scarcity of shooters, we had a great time and possibly converted two club members into BP shooters to boot.   

Hang in there, example -- A club in s/e Penna had their first bp shoot abt 15 yrs ago 3 guys showed up; I said $#*! lets shoot anyway...  It grew from there.  Although they now only run woodswalks in the winter they get avg of 30 to 40 shooters each time and for a blanket shoot no less.  Course being in the winter the guys get cabin fever..    I found out that advertising in the newspaper is and was a waste of prize money!!!  At least it was for us....  Word of mouth at other shoots works well.   

[Frizzen]

I'm trying to do my part. Here is my daughter Halie. She is 10. She has been shooting pistol
for a couple years. She won the Sub-Jr Pistol at Friendship last year. They have to shoot two
10 shot matches at 25 yds. I can tell you one thing, You don't want her shooting at you at 25yds.