Collapsing interest in ML !

[Roger Fisher]

A post by good ol Hank in W By God Virginia remarking about the interest in ML shooting (atleast in competition) results in the following:  I have my own thoughts on this- some right some wrong.

I have noticed our group is shrinking due to age and ill health and not being replaced out of any repo depo.  Seems the youngins are more interested in hot rods, girls, and computer games than ML shooting.  No cure in sight.

I have seen many times at somewhat large or darn large rondys and shoots that most of the folks sit in camp and will not go to the range or w walks and shoot. One large and recent doins had nearly 250 camps and only 40+ showed up at the range and/or woodswalks although the first targets were 'on the house'!

Some shooters are in to plinking only and will not enter in to any competition. Seems as if they hate like $#*! to be beaten or told they are doing something wrong.
In my mind competition is the driving force (to sound corny) behind the whole hobby.
So, many folks will not study the game and practice so they can shoot respectful scores and simply don't show up at the shooting line.  Darn shame. 

I notice that the few newbies that get in to the game buy the cheapest piece of $#@* to try to shoot (flintlocks in particular) fouling and the resulting problems get them disgusted to the point the rifle is cast aside and the new 'shooter' gives up.

There are a hard core group of circuit shooters in our state that travel to most of the shoots and rondys and really apply themselves in this friendly competition and most become better at the game for it. These hard core shooters will admit that the quality prizes awarded at many shoots is one of the reasons they travel in there. The opposite is also true.  I have seen (over the years) one rondy and shoot that shot themselves in the foot by::::: pulling matches out, by stopping paying high flint and high percussion and going to one first only in their agg and primative agg and finally killed the agg by going to a 50/50 pay out this kills it @!*% quick.  The boys simply stand back and shoot re entries and watching to see how many shooters enter the agg.....

I'm full of complaints; but really have not discovered a cure for the failing interest in shooting competition.  I'd like to for sure. I can only say we must continue to try to stir the interest in the few new shooters we run in to so our game continues...

Enough ranting.

[ChipK]

We just finished our 34th Annual Rondy at the Paul Bunyan Sportsman Club in Puyallup WA.  We are seeing a rejuvenation of the Rondy with more children than in the past 10 years and more families.  Our event had 161 shooters, 100 camps, and 27 traders.

This is due in part to grand parents bring out grand kids, but also to the women in Western Washington who are celebrating their 10th Women's Primitive Skills Event this upcoming weekend.  They get together to learn about the skills needed to participate.  These range from shooting to cooking to kids games to clothing. 

This has brought ore families back into the sport and is maintaining a new generation of families getting involved.

[hanshi]

It looked, in the mid 20th century, as if muzzloading was a thing of the past.  You could count the gun builders on one hand and there wasn't anything in the way of factory guns and what there was was junk.  Finally things got to working out right and now we're in good shape with so many great builders and a core interest group.  We have inlines, now and that may have siphoned off some of a replacement generation.  I guess we all just need to make a concerted effort to bring and educate new shooters into the true way.  Shame on those who don't want to shoot.  Guys, gals, that's what it's all about.  

[Dan]

Dunno I'd agree about all of that. This is what I saw last Sunday:



Alafia River Rendezvous near Homeland, Fl.

[Leatherbelly]

  I'm not sure how these re-entry things work,Rog, but maybe you shouldn't have them if guys are sandbagging to get a better prize. Up here I've never heard about them (re-entries)other than in jest at our local practice shoots. We shoot the best we can on our trail and winner goes first to the table. I just don't understand about re-entering  if you miss a target and get to shoot it again and PAY a penalty for your sins. Ya still missed! I know it would !$@! me off if I shot a better score then someone and they won a better prize for shooting a re-entry. That may drive off some of the better shooters, I don't know.

[Sam Everly]

Roger were just dying off! The average age is around 60 for most clubs. As far as kids i have went to Friendship for several years now. There you see the kids, about the same bunch every year, then you see the kids get around 15 to 16 years old and then they stop showing up. Things today have to be quick, right now!!! Even the kids that have been going from birth just lose intrest.   

[doug]

     I think one of the reasons for declining shooters is found in the comments about what amounts to a small group of professional shooters traveling a circuit and almost certainly taking all of the (expensive) prizes.  If I knew that I had absolutely no hope in competing against a small group of exceptional shooters, why would I bother as opposed to practicing on the range where it costs me less and I win the same amount.
     At the rondyvous up here we more or less know who is going to win (within a small group) but the prizes and the entry fees are not great and we shoot for fun and against ourselves.  I think by putting up very expensive prizes you may attract a small elite group but exclude the majority of average shooters.

cheers Doug

[BrownBear]

We discovered the same process in a different shooting discipline.  Big prizes and the same old winners.  It got to the point you'd see people drive up, look over who was on the line, then leave once they saw the usual winners.  They didn't want to waste their entry fees, much less their ammo.

We beat the trend and restored interest with a master league.  Win two open matches, and you were automatically moved to the masters league.  We kept the big prizes in the open league and stimulated a lot of participation and new members.  Prize in the masters league was a box of ammo and points toward annual award of a perenial trophy.  He who garnered the most points in a year got his name on the trophy.  No big prizes for the same old winners.  Bragging rights were good enough for our crew.

[Roger Fisher]

Well now I thought I'd get this cooking!!   More!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The big BC rendezvous happens at Heffley Creek's range during the last week of August and over the long weekend of September.  It gets bigger every year, tho' perhaps not big by some standards.  We get 130 + camps with shooters coming from all the western provinces, Oregon, Washington, and even Germany.  Shooting starts on Saturday morning at 9 am and it's a rifle trail across the face of a hillside.  There'll be seventy or so shooters of all ages and both sexes on the line.  It costs $5.00 CDN / adult and only a buck for kids, for each event.  It is rare that the person who hits the most targets is a stranger, and if it is, by the end of the 10 days, they will have lost that moniker.  The prizes are supplied by the club/individuals hosting the event, and that changes with each event.  It's an absolute hoot.

[Daryl]

By mid-week, at Hefley, there are 150 shooters per event.; We have been setting records every year for the past 4 to 6.  It's getting gooder and gooder.

As the flock thins through attrition, new shooters are showing up and some older ones as well - miracles of modern eye surgery!

[B Shipman]

In the late 70's and early 80's my friend Frank and I were very much circuit shooters. Often 2 matches a weekend. We'd travel far and wide.
He had a knack of finding things. Real turkey shoots. Known people only because i'ts illegal, but they let us in because we had flintlocks. Any gun , single proectile, 30 cal. or larger, open sights.  The turkeys were behind a log bank in a cage with a hole in the top at 50 yds. You call the turkey, up pops a moving head and you shoot. What we did, and they never got wise, was to skin the top of the log creating a shrapnel of wood and lead. We'd take often all the turkeys. You'd get a frozen turkey and the one you shot was cleaned and frozen for the next meet. There were other events where we were at a disadvantage so we were semi welcome.

We'd shoot at Blue Ridge where I think Roger shoots as well. I was competative but these guys were to good for me. Frank, however was very good. In one primitive he and another guy tied with perfect scores. The shoot off went on for awile with a crowd gathering. In the end it came down to shooting a stick hanging between the legs of a full sized buffalo sillouette at 100 yds. The other guy missed high by an inch and Frank hit the stick (I still have it signed and dated) to a great cheer. Totally luck but there it is. 1983 I think. I wonder if Roger was there and remembers this. I can't imagine anything more impressive. Got me 6 rifle orders.
What happened? Kids. Soccer coach. No time . Eyes not as good. Frank's now into Harleys. Sold his "famous rifle" at Dixons for I think $5500. I made it for him before we were good friends for $1500 in 1982.

[northmn]

I dropped out in the 80's. Due some to burnout and some to the fact that the Rondy's were a campout for Walt Disney buckskinners.  They actually talked shooting down.  Some of it was due to the fact that they could not compete and did not want to pay the dues to becoming good shots.  "If I shot and practiced as much as you I could do as well"  was a common comment.  They did not practice and shoot and did not do as well. Bullseye shooting was losing popularity.  I tried three shot groups for score and more targets, but they still thought it was too disciplined.  The "primitive" matches where one shot could get a prize became popular and attracted more shooters.  They were also close range. Also after winning a few prizes the better shots were expected to back off a little.  I started using smoothbores so I could keep shooting.  Funny thing was that I and another person started out a club that really grew, but neither of us are in it any more.  Another good shot also dropped out due to the Rondy culture.  I guess the new guard has revived shooting to some extent.  I may take in a shoot pretty soon to see whats up if my work lets me.  Some of this stuff seems to cycle like a sine wave where you almost see a total loss of interest and then a new crew shows up and revives it and interest peaks again. 

DP

[Roger Fisher]

In the late 70's and early 80's my friend Frank and I were very much circuit shooters. Often 2 matches a weekend. We'd travel far and wide.
He had a knack of finding things. Real turkey shoots. Known people only because i'ts illegal, but they let us in because we had flintlocks. Any gun , single proectile, 30 cal. or larger, open sights.  The turkeys were behind a log bank in a cage with a hole in the top at 50 yds. You call the turkey, up pops a moving head and you shoot. What we did, and they never got wise, was to skin the top of the log creating a shrapnel of wood and lead. We'd take often all the turkeys. You'd get a frozen turkey and the one you shot was cleaned and frozen for the next meet. There were other events where we were at a disadvantage so we were semi welcome.

We'd shoot at Blue Ridge where I think Roger shoots as well. I was competative but these guys were to good for me. Frank, however was very good. In one primitive he and another guy tied with perfect scores. The shoot off went on for awile with a crowd gathering. In the end it came down to shooting a stick hanging between the legs of a full sized buffalo sillouette at 100 yds. The other guy missed high by an inch and Frank hit the stick (I still have it signed and dated) to a great cheer. Totally luck but there it is. 1983 I think. I wonder if Roger was there and remembers this. I can't imagine anything more impressive. Got me 6 rifle orders.
What happened? Kids. Soccer coach. No time . Eyes not as good. Frank's now into Harleys. Sold his "famous rifle" at Dixons for I think $5500. I made it for him before we were good friends for $1500 in 1982.

We have been shooting at Bl Ridge every Memorial and Labor day weekend since 79.  (I won a teepee on a luck target in 79 and had it sold b/4 I lugged it to the car to Barbara's great relief I might add )  I can't recall said stick target as a tie brkr in their primative; but I do have some trouble remembering things!  I guess my rememberer is busted!

[Roger Fisher]

Also adding to the mix may be what's happened in the retail market the past 25 years:

Modern inline "muzzleloaders" have saturated the bulk of the population;

What few mass produced traditional MLs there were have vanished from sporting goods stores...ergo, nothing to touch & feel;

Advertising for traditionals has vanished...only "black guns" are popular;

Traditional sales have dropped off to almost nothing...T/C, the biggest single company influence in helping newcomers get started since 1970 are down to only one or two models now;

Places to shoot have all but disappeared 'cause you just can't go down to the old rock quarry anymore without somebody calling 911;

Blackpowder is not sold at Walmarts;

The special attraction of primitive hunting seasons for traditional gear has disappeared with the onslaught of scope sighted easy to use front loaders;

Places to hunt have become fewer and fewer;

All of these cycles winding down results in less and less involved / knowledgable people in households to perpetuate the hobby;

So true, so darn true!

[Daryl]

I dropped out in the 80's. Due some to burnout and some to the fact that the Rondy's were a campout for Walt Disney buckskinners.    Another good shot also dropped out due to the Rondy culture.  I guess the new guard has revived shooting to some extent.  I may take in a shoot pretty soon to see whats up if my work lets me.  Some of this stuff seems to cycle like a sine wave where you almost see a total loss of interest and then a new crew shows up and revives it and interest peaks again. 

DP

DP - at Hefley there is no push to shoot - you can sit, drink and visit all week if you want, however the entries for shooting actually outnumber the campers.  Lots of family shooting.  Some people shoot the matches with both rifle and then go through the course that day a second time with their smoothbore - events & prizing for both.  Helfey for many is a family affair - not only contestant's own families, but everyone becomes part of an extended family - it's full of camaraderie and very close friendships.

  Visitors are welcome, of course, as Dave and Gail R. found out last year. They came for a very short 3 or 4 days, but I believe they are coming for the whole 10 days this year. We really enjoyed their company and tried to show them a good time - I only hope we didn't overdo it and not give them enough 'self-time'.  Hefley Creek Rondy is a huge family week - it takes a while to say good by to everyone at the end.

[hatchetdan]

My two cents, One of the biggest problems I see is that no one in the general public knows we exist. A new shooter can have a real problem finding the shoots, Ive lost count of clubs that have no web sites, some have been around here in Oklahoma for 50 years. Clubs need to contact their local papers and news stations for some P.R. to let the public know whats going on, where to go to see a match ect. I recently completed a half stock rifle and took to show my neighbors 10 year old son, he asked what was in the case and i told him it was the muzzleloader that i had told him that i was building, when he took it out of the case he said" Thats a muzzleloader?"  he was expecting plastic and stainless steel!

[northwoodsdave]

Roundball wrote:
 
Blackpowder is not sold at Walmarts;
 

Our walmart carries black powder substitute, along with bullets, caps and other stuff, though only around hunting season.

Dave

[Roger Fisher]

  I'm not sure how these re-entry things work,Rog, but maybe you shouldn't have them if guys are sandbagging to get a better prize. Up here I've never heard about them (re-entries)other than in jest at our local practice shoots. We shoot the best we can on our trail and winner goes first to the table. I just don't understand about re-entering  if you miss a target and get to shoot it again and PAY a penalty for your sins. Ya still missed! I know it would !$@! me off if I shot a better score then someone and they won a better prize for shooting a re-entry. That may drive off some of the better shooters, I don't know.

Maybe we have done this subject to death..  Ah yes, reentries, unfortunate but they are the profit making matches for the clubs to put on (to pay the bills)  If we would be fortunate enough to have someone  (there are a few) that owns a hundred acres or some such that would allow an ML club to use as their home base to put on shoots at no cost it would not be necessary to run shoots at a profit...!
The reentry matches are usually paper matches/targets at a buck a piece 3 or mainly 5 shots per target best target for the day is your score target.  Some clubs shoot the same paper target/matches for an entire 2 - 3 or 4 day shoot.  This really drives up the scores....      If the clubs would only run non re-entry targets they would be hard pressed to pay the bills.  Our club's primative style silohuette etc agg is 12 to 15 shots + plus a paper tie brkr Non reentry and we seldom make a profit (after prizes) on it.  We make up for that with our 25 and 50 yd re entries... I like the idea of the w walks with say 40 or 45 shots to last the better part of the day non reentry.  I have yet to find any such in these parts...!

I notice that some clubs make the paper targets tougher and tougher which turns off some average shooters....

[fdf]

Have you been to Friendship to expericence what is available there?

FDF

[Dave K]

I think it is just the ways things are headed. I don't care what activity you were or are involved in, it is not as it once was. My Dad is an avid sailor. He raced one design sailboats since the early 60's. Now, hardly anyone, compared to what it was. Used to enjoy the old dar hobby, but now they are talking about out carbon foot print and they are changing fuels and raising fuel prices out of reach. I enjoy archery, it doesn't have the following it once did. The archers are splintered into grps. such as the Ml'er people are with the inlines, because of crossbows. I was an avid enduro rider/dirtbiker, land closure took that mostly away. Just as the talk from the anti-gun people and the talk of no lead in our guns are going to injure us further. It seems there are powers that won't be happy until we all take up golf or something other than what we enjoy now. Our national parks are a welcome source or recreation and they must be preserved, but unless we all learn to hug trees, our hunting will be with cameras and our fishing will be only catch and release.

[Frank]

I shot with a club in Virginia Beach back in the 80s that allowed re-entry on their matches. There was one guy who must have re-entered ten times until he finally won the match. Then the guy bragged about winning. I never shot in their matches again.

[fdf]

No...that's over 1000+ miles away...hardly a distance to just 'drop by'...and that's exactly one of my points.



That is the problem, lack of participation and lack of interest.

FDF

[Daryl]

Taylor and I are travelling over 3,000 miles to visit Dixon's for 3 days.  Probably the first and last trip for me due to expense (not as rich as Taylor), and second trip for Taylor.  I suspect some day, RB will attend Friendship too - as I am going to Dixon's, out of curiosity and desire to meet friends I haven't met , meet again someone who became a friend last August and make some new ones too.

[Dave K]

But Roundball! You were just to NY, I think. Maybe just once you can over indulge in your hobby and see Friendship. Granted, I only live about 150 miles away, so I don't even get a room. Many times I go 2 days and just drive it. I can see that a 1000 mile trip would be a hardship. But! You should go sometime, just once and see all the plates from all the states of the Union and Canada. You don't need to go every year, just once. Then you will know if you ever would consider it again. Yes, I am very unhappy with some of the things that take place in this and other hobbies and you mentioned a few of them. So, I ignore them.