KRA Lehigh CD

[Mike Lyons]

None of the 20 original Lehigh rifles on the KRA disk have the exaggerated curve on the stock comb that is on so many current builds.  The lower portion of the butt stock is different for each maker and does show major curves. Some of the Lehigh gunsmiths have a stock comb that is nearly as strait as a Lancaster. Is the stock comb over exaggerated on current builds because of the lack of research and so many doing builds from internet pictures rather than history?  I really like the overly exaggerated stock comb curve but was surprised with this research.  I like the Neihart #17, Kuntz #5 and Rupp #2 and 7 rifles the most.  That keeps changing by the hour though.

[TommyG]

I splurged and bought a Neihardt print from Eric Von Aschwege a few months ago to help with a build I'm planning a few guns out.  This would be an early Neihardt.  There is very subtle curve on the comb, a bit more pronounced on the toe line, but nothing like the later works of Rupp and Moll.  IMO it looks more like some of Oerters work, but I like it.  There is definitely the "soft diamond" shape to the wrist.  Now take this all with a grain of salt, because I am no expert, those are just my humble observations.

[Mike Lyons]

Maybe these are early rifles on the disc.  They just send a bunch of pictures. 

[Mauser06]

I noticed the same thing.... I too thought maybe they were earlier than what most of us recognize as a Lehigh gun now...?

[Stophel]

And you have discovered why so many modern day "Lehigh" guns are so, well, wrong.  Many people today also don't want to reproduce the very straight, level wrists that Lehigh guns usually exhibit.

[Mike Lyons]

They look so bulky and uncomfortable. The transitions are weird. The rear sights have a hump in the front and rear also.  It’s like the barrel was made with a raised area or a dovetail was cut, then the points lifted and then cut again. It’s not the common cut in dovetail.  The front sights must be Jb welded on because there’s no mark. I really think the little man on the trigger guard is an alien.  Probably the same ones that hovered stones to built the pyramids.

[smallpatch]

Afghan,
Some of those things you've said are true....... and that's what makes the Lehigh so attractive.
The dovetail is proper for many smiths of the era.  It requires removing less metal.  You make a shallow dovetail, then upset the metal on each end for the length.  Probably a practical reason.
Lehigh design is difficult to get right.  Particularly a fully developed Lehigh. Earlier ones are straighter, thicker, later.... more pronounced curves, slimmer.
There are also many variations among builders in the area.
If you ever hold a well made one, you'll be amazed at the beauty of the design, AND just how slim and graceful they are.
I have an Allen Martin.  Known here as the Lehigh Jedi.  Profiled from an original A.H. Rupp..... it's a true pleasure. 
Also, the explanation of the Liberty Head is probably as good as most.

[Mike Lyons]

Thanks smallpatch for the information.   I love the look of the Lehigh Rifles and cant wait to finish one.    I’m just amazed at the differences.  It’s so odd that the Lehighs have so many different characteristics that never stuck with time. 

[smallpatch]

This original Rupp is pretty curvy, and probably what most are based on.  Who wants a gun with flat square lines when you can have this?

[smallpatch]

They did stick with time. We just picked the ones that pleased us the most.  Curvy ones.  Then we built those.

[flehto]

Hi Dane....although I really like the looks of the Rupp you posted, I think it's a cheek slapper. I've found that if a long straight edge is held on the comb at the spot that the cheek would rest and if the straight edge towards the breech is above the breech end of the bbl, it'll slap your cheek.

The full evolution of the Lehigh LRs wasn't that long a period.....it happened quickly and in the end was short lived and some would consider a fad.

I favor building Bucks County LRs and their    evolution was just as short. and also could be considered a fad. I find that the BC LRs are more comfortable to shoot.....no cheek slappers.

I think Allen Martin's Lehigh stock architecture minimizes the curve of the comb and his Lehighs don't smack the cheek....he's compromised and still retains the "look" of a Lehigh.....very difficult to do. I know you've posted your Allen Martin Lehigh, but could you do it again? .....Please......Fred

[Mr. Bubbles]

As you discovered on the disc, there really isn't any one "Lehigh shape".  As per the article in the other thread, there were 150 different makers operating in that area, and they all did things a little differently.  Guns in the central part of the county varied from those in the southern and western part.  Not all of them had the distinctive arrowhead left side plate for instance.  That's a central Lehigh county feature.  Those in the south had a pointy tail end.

The distinctive "double radius wrist curve" is more of a Germanic feature, (similar to German Jaegers)  and seems to be a Rupp and Moll characteristic primarily.  I suggest that you pick a gun from the disc (or otherwise) that you like, and build THAT specific gun.  You can "upscale" the carving and engraving certainly, but try to at least stay grounded in what was done on the original.

As I've said before, I'm currently building the Kuntz # 5 gun, and have been for  the last 2 years.  It's been quite the challenge because I opted for a 48" FCI A-weight which shrunk the proportionality aspects of just about everything.  Adding in a DASST complicated things (unnecessarily) as well.  I wouldn't go that route again.  That particular gun has ALL the carving styles in it; incise, relief, and raised

The one thing I really hate about them are the sights though, (too small and low) so I'm adding about 0.100" of height to the rear one and upsizing it on the feet extensions so as to preserve the proportionality. It will look a little big on an A-weight barrel, but a gun really isn't any good if you can't aim it.   I find that I need at least 0.15" of height on the front post so I can at least FIND it in a reasonable amount of time.

Here's the butt area of the build with 1 coat of varnish on.  Varnish cures interminably slowly this time of year.  Since I still have lots of engraving left to so, I can let it sit a week between coats.

[Mr. Bubbles]

Here's a couple more.  It's really more reddish than the pictures show.  Final look is still yet to be known.

[rich pierce]

Dave, the way it’s photographed at the edge of the bench I cannot tell if it has a double curve on the underside. Does this one?

And for all who ponder how much “Lehigh” rifles varied AND changed over time, look at any other region or school. Compare an early Dickert to a late M. Fordney side by side. Or even Dickert, Fainot, Isaac Haines, John Newcomwr, and Valentine Fondersmith “early Lancaster” rifles head to head. To me, this is why the term “transitional” rifles is a weak descriptor. There was always variety, there has always been transition. In my view there never was or is a “fully evolved” American longrifle. 

[Mr. Bubbles]

No double radius curves to a Kuntz gun's wrist.  The only "flat spot" in the wrist curve profile (which is also always changing in radius) is under the rear foot of the TG.  I used the Reeves Goering # 17 BP which is a Lancaster and then filed the bejeesus out of it to ta[per the front end.  It's a little short at the toe for as deep as it should have gone, but you have to deal with what you  can, and live with what you can't.

Here's the left side plate.  Still in the bondo block at this point.  The original gun did not have engraving on the side plate (or lock).  I don't know why the original makers didn't decorate them more.  Kuntz did later on in his career, and became a very good engraver, but he (and actually I think this gun may have been a Moll creation) didn't do it much on this one.  Just the thumb piece and PB.

[Mike Brooks]

Maybe we can ID the mysterious Mr. Bubbles now. does anybody recognize those feet?

[Maalsral]

Here are some pictures of my Allen Martin Lehigh:

[smallpatch]

Mark,
Yours looks to be more on the lines of a Moll?

Fred,
This is the profile of mine, and there is DEFINITELY no cheek slap.

[smallpatch]

Sorry, can't seem to make them load.  I'll keep working on it.

[Stophel]

I've made three Lehigh guns.  Only one (the second) is actually done.  These two were made as experimental guns,  in many ways.

This is the third one


along with the first one


The first one I made twelve years ago... and it's still not done.  I intend to finish it up, after several finishing experiments were made on it.  In this time, though, I have lost the rear ramrod pipe, so I have to make a new one fit...grrr.  This gun is not quite "right", but I think it's in the neighborhood.  I'm sure my diamond shape wrist is too sharp, but by golly, I think it's cool!     It would look better with a taller lock, to get the above-center look, but it is what it is.  It actually points, handles, and shoots quite well and comfortably, though the wrist takes some getting used to.  It's very straight, and the hand has to twist up to hold it, and my thumb encroaches upon the rear sight, but I can still see it.   

The second one I made here is intended to be Neihardt-ish, so there isn't much step in the wrist to speak of.

I'm reasonably happy with this gun, but I am not happy with the varnish....  it bugs me to this day.

[rich pierce]

Stophel, you should be very happy with that one. Lovely carving.

[rich pierce]

Maybe we can ID the mysterious Mr. Bubbles now. does anybody recognize those feet?

I think Mr. Bubbles is a scuba diver/instructor. But does not seem to have webbed feet.

I should say something about Lehigh to stay on topic. The early stuff, elder Moll and Niehardt appeal to me most. But I gravitate to early guns anyway. I’m stuck in Fainot-land but a Lehigh- related rifle is in my future, largely based on what I call the Ugly Bird Head Patchbox Rifle. It’s very funky with a robust stepped wrist.

[Mr. Bubbles]

Right you are about being a diving instructor.

The first one I made was from a Dave Keck semi carved, which was a Stophel Long.  That one appealed to me because of the exaggerated roman nose and swoop to the belly line.  The web is 3/16" on it and it definitely looks somewhat "heavy".  There wasn't enough drop at the comb for me either, and man alive is that one a cheek slapper!  About 50 gr FFFg in a 50 is about all it can shoot before the bruises start to accumulate.  That's ok for about 95% of what I use it for, but it's really not a comfortable gun to mount.

With many of the originals the toe is angled forward on the butt plate.  I tried doing that just like the originals  on the last gun and the gun had a tendency to want to climb off my shoulder when shouldering it.  Very uncomfortanble to try and hold down.  So I bent the BP in to more of a vertical plane at the toe.  It's not great, but at least it stays shouldered.  Kuntz put a little bit of a rearward angle to his toes so I think they will stay shouldered better.  Mine has a little bit more than Kuntz' does, but I know it will stay stuck to my shoulder.  Being that it is only a 38, shooting an 83 gr PRB, I'm really not too worried about cheek slap.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Lehigh rifles are sexy, sensuous, curvy rifles.  Allan Martin and Mark Wheland simply nail them. 
There are rifles from Lehigh Co. that are likely awkward to shoot, and likely crack the cheek.  But they don't have to.  Pick a design that has the comb line, drop at comb and heel that will give you a nice shooting rifle.  I did.
Eric Von Auschwege and Tom Curran documented the two Kuntz rifles in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY, and were kind enough to provide the info to me.  From that I built a rifle that I believe captures the Kuntz essence, and it is truly a joy to shoot.  I used a 44" B weight Rice barrel in .40 cal. and the rifle came out at exactly 8 1/2 pounds.  The wood is a dense piece of sugar maple from Tiger Hunt.  I want to emphasize that the rifle in no way is awkward or uncomfortable to shoot...it is my favourite trail-shoot rifle and has won me many awards.






So go ahead - build one, but stick to authentic design and you should be able to produce a rifle with all the sweetness of a Lehigh with none of the bad reputation.

[PPatch]

Stophel; That is a handsome Lehigh, your 2nd one. I like what you did with it and the carving is first rate. Varnish looks fine.

Afghanvet; I'm liking the way you research a project, that is the way to go and the understanding you achieve will show in your build. It is good to have a fairly locked down concept of what you want to accomplish on a build. The research provides that foundation.

If you haven't already found it Eric Von Aschwege at Neahkhnie Flintlocks has some detailed plans for five Lehigh's by well known old time makers.

http://www.neahkahnieflintlocks.com/plans.html

It is good to see someone as excited about building as you - good luck on your Lehigh!

dave