Open Nose Cap

[Mike Lyons]

Does anyone have the full wrap around nose cap thread that Eric posted long ago?     I’ve found several links to it but it doesn’t work.  I’m planning on doing a full wrap nose cap that has a flair/ flame on the side.  It’s the Herman Rupp rifle from the KRA disk.  I’ve read that the sides of the nose cap are not inlet but looking at the pictures, it sure looks that way.  It looks like most of it is inlet but part of it is hanging off the lower section of the nose. http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=4496.0

[Eric Kettenburg]

You will find them done in a multitude of ways.  Some fully inlet, some just wrapped around as an overlay etc.  I've seen them done every way imaginable.  Most are lapped and riveted in the rammer channel, so of course that will need some inletting.  I have seen them lapped inside the barrel channel also.  They're all fairly thin material so inletting them is not much of a chore at all, mostly just some paring with a very sharp chisel and some scraping.

[Mikecooper]

That links to an old board.  how do you get access ?

[Dennis Glazener]

Contact me by PM and I will set you up.
Dennis

That links to an old board.  how do you get access ?

[Mikecooper]

Thanks!  PM sent.

[JTR]

I have an Bucks County attributed to George Weiker with a wrap around nose cap. Like Eric pointed out, some are inlet and some not. This one is just wrapped around as an overlay. In fact it's not even wrapped down into the barrel channel, but just ends butted up against the side of the barrel. It has a small brass rivet in either side to hold it in place.
One thing to remember is that the old guys generally used thinner material on their guns, than now. This nose cap looks to be about 15 / 20 thousands. Silver inlays are generally even thinner than that, around 10 / 12 thousands.
Of course that's not to say all!

The Rupp you mention is a fine looking rifle!

John

[Mike Brooks]

I did a lehigh  open ended nose cap yesterday, grooved on the bottom  for the rod and not wrapped around, just butted up against the side of the barrel. I put two brass rivets in the groove. I inlet mine like a "normal" cap. Used .032 sheet. I didn't put any nifty flames on mine either. For some reason it took me about 2.5 hours, I can usually do one about an hour quicker. With out and end cap you have to take more care about exact fitting underneath so it looks good when you look straight down the muzzle. If you solder a cap over the end you can be a little gappy and nobody knows, thus a bit quicker.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When I was commissioned to build a Herman Rupp rifle I studied every available image I could find, including the KRA's DVD and determined, after attempting to inlet a one piece winged nose piece, that the wings were separate from the forward section.  I also believe that the nose cap is closed on that rifle, but the judges at Dixon's disagreed and I lost points for it.  Anyway, I started out trying to inlet the one piece cap and it didn't go well, so I cut the wings off and inlet them as separate inlays.  That worked out a lot better and certainly simplified the job.

[Mike Lyons]

Thank you all so much for the advice and pictures.  I can't tell if the nose it open or closed from my reference pictures. It looks like the flames are not intact to the stock in one picture, but it might be the angle of the picture and the lighting.  It also looks like they are a separate part of the nose cap in a picture.  I'm going attempt an open nose cap with the wings separate.  If it gets gappy, I'll close the nose cap. 

[Mike Brooks]

I would have been semi annoyed with the judge's opinion. Of course I'm generally annoyed with just about everything these days anyway. Nice job on the flaming cap, I wasn't  even remotely tempted to try that, way beyond my pay grade.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Of course I'm generally annoyed with just about everything these days anyway.

We surely must be related.

I went all over the 1793 rifle about 15 years ago and going by recollection only, I thought the flames were separate pieces.  Also I swear I remember the end being closed, not open.  I may have photos, will have to dig around and see what I can find.  Now my curiosity is raging.  I really should start taking copious notes instead of relying upon memory.  I'm not 25 any more.

Most of the simple wraps, as has been mentioned earlier, are very thin material.  I think the stuff I use is .020.  For the pieces which simply butt up against the barrel, I use slightly heavier material, more like what Mike mentioned using, but that's about as heavy as you'd want to go.

[SingleMalt]

If you do, indeed go with an open cap, be especially careful with inletting and smoothing the wood, as it can be seen at the muzzle and will stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.  If I recall correctly, I used .040 sheet brass for mine.  Make sure to anneal often to avoid cracking.

[Mike Lyons]

silence poems


After looking closer, it appears to be closed and the flames are not separate. The flames look inlet but the bottom of the flames look like they are not attached to the stock. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That image alone tells me all I thought to be true about the nose piece of this rifle.  First, there is clearly a thicker piece of brass soldered to the front end of the side brass, and there is clearly a junction, cleverly disguised by engraving, where the flames join the forward nose cap.  All pieces are inlet flush with the wood.

The unfortunate part of submitting a documented copy to the Dixon judges is there is no appeal.  In their defense, I did not produce documents with the work either.  I assumed they would know at least as much as I did about the subject.  Yes, I was a little peeved.  They did however, issue me three ribbons for the rifle which I do cherish.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Good picture.  Yes, I definitely see a 'front piece' so it is indeed a closed front, and also I believe I see a joint where the flames are attached to the body of the nose cap.  I think Taylor is nailing it in his description and this is the way I remember it.

Maybe these judges are 'making' law as opposed to interpreting it!  bwahahahahahahahahahaha

[Mike Lyons]

I have a few more pictures and it does look like the flames are a separate piece.   It’s definitely closed. The more I study the pictures,  the more I’m happy I haven’t started rasping wood. It’s unreal how things appear from nowhere. 

[smylee grouch]

Taylor, after you had those wings inlet and everything in place did you attach the wings to the main body of the nose cap or how did you keep those wings to stay in place if you didn't.

[Nordnecker]

Interesting....I've never studied Rupp's work. I can clearly see the thicker piece of brass at the front of the cap. But I can't really tell where the junction is between the cap and the finial. I can see the rivet that holds the small end of the finial. Do you suppose the finial is beveled under the cap, or just butted up to it?

[rich pierce]

We usually assume that what we are looking at on an original is what was there when the rifle was built. Sometimes that is true, sometimes not. Lots of builds have been based on reconstructions or restorations of originals. Probably not the case here.