Long term effects of CNCed kits?

[conquerordie]

I'm one of those small builders. If I sell a gun I get maybe $1200 to $1500. For me, as a hobbiest, I think I'm doing awesome. I don't want to do this for a living. I think guys like me might be effected by cnc kits. That being said, I've already recommended Jim's kits to others on different forums Im on. I applaud his hard work and spirit. I don't have any negative opinions of him or his kits, just looking at the reality of it. I build and sell so that I can afford to get more parts. I'm not " in the money" at this stage of my life. The only thing going for me is I'm not a longrifle kind of guy. Don't have any interest in them.
I've heard talk that a builder is going to be making CNC locks of new styles. How's that going to effect other lock makers? No more waiting for the casting companies to get you parts. Very little fitting needed.
So if all kit makers need to up their games, do all lock makers now have to as well? I would say yes.
I'm playing devils advocate here: if Mr. Kibler  made a fine English fowler kit like the one that just won at Dixons, would it still have won as a kit? Because now their could be 10 builders entering the same gun, just decorated differently. Kinda looses its magic.
Greg

[davec2]

Jim Kibler,

This topic has inspired a lot of comment.  I will keep mine concise.....keep doing exactly what you are doing and Godspeed to you.  An excellent quality product at a fair price will never result in a detriment to you or those interested in muzzleloading arms.  However, it will make other manufacturers who are not up to your standards either do better or get out of the game.  And if by "soulless" others mean that your guns are not full of major mistakes, then more power to you again !!!  As has been done in your examples, your kits are beautiful in their basic form but can also be a blank canvas for all the "soulful" artistry one could ever reasonably apply to a long rifle.

As the old Navy expression goes, I wish you, Katherine, and your company "fair winds and a following sea" !

David Crisalli

[smylee grouch]

Well said Dave.

[p.d.]

I suppose I will weigh in as a neophyte.  Earlier this summer I bought one of Mr. Kibler's colonial rifle kits and attended the NMLRA building class at WKU in Bowling Green, Ky.  Because of the Kibler kit I spent a week under the tutelage of Ed Wenger.  I got to attend a picnic at Terry Leeper's home.  I was able to attend a gathering at Hershel House's home.  I spent nearly forty minutes chatting with Wallace Gusler on a bench in front of the building.  I met a bunch of very talented people who were attending other classes there.  So, I can't say what the future holds because of these kits but the recent past was pretty awesome in my view.  I had never fired a flintlock rifle before July 4th of this year and that was the rifle I completed from this kit.  I was not going to attempt to build a rifle from a plank and I was not going to buy a custom made rifle without really knowing if it was something I would enjoy.  I suppose this is a verbose way of saying that if the Kibler kit had not been available I would have probably stayed with caplocks.   

[sqrldog]

I agree also Dave. The quality is definitely there and dedication to being architecturally and component correct as possible is outstanding. These kit rifles certainly can be an asset in bringing  new blood into the muzzleloading fraternity.  Some will stop at one rifle but most may not. Capable custom builders offer the ability to build more styles, calibers and custom fit. I don't  see Kibler's kits being anything  but a push in the right direction for the sport. Keep more styles and options coming Jim.

[J. Talbert]

I gotta agree with Dave.

Any ground braking venture is going to cause some ripples along the way, but overall I don't see how this could be anything but a positive influence.
Nothing stays the same.

Jeff

[T*O*F]

Long term effects of CNCed kits?

We can bloviate all we want, but the reality of the situation is that a large percentage of us will not be around in the next 10 or 15 years to see any effects, if any.

It is the sons and daughters of we baby boomers who will institute changes going forward.  We will only be passing memories discussed by them on future forums.  These "fine young Indians" have already begun shaping the future of muzzleloading to fit their reality, not ours.  They are the instruments of change, while we sit around talking about how it used to be.  I laud their innovative thinking and ideas.

[Nate McKenzie]

Well said T*O*F

[Mike Brooks]

We can bloviate all we want, but the reality of the situation is that a large percentage of us will not be around in the next 10 or 15 years to see any effects, if any.

Well that's a little breath of sunshine....

[Jim Chambers]

As the owner of the other quality kit business I can only applaud and offer congrads to Jim Kibler for what he has accomplished.
Has it hurt our kit business?  Not in the least.  Honestly, I expected a small downturn in our business once his kits came on line.  However, our sales actually increased slightly last year.  Also, we are supplying all the locks for his kits, and that has helped our bottom line as well.
While I have no intention of going to CNC for making our stocks or making our kits as advanced as the Kibler kits, we are not standing still with our locks.  We are in the final stages of turning to CNC machining for more precise assembly of our locks.  More on that later.

[David Price]

I would like to share my thoughts on this subject which are  slightly different  from the others that I have read. 

I built my first rifle in 1957 when I was twenty years old. Back then there were no pre cut stocks and parts were very hard to find.  I bought a Belgium made barrel from Dixie Gun Works and used a flint lock from an antique pistol that I found in a junk shop.  The wood was a plank of straight grained maple that I found in a local lumber yard.  When the rifle was finished it looked more like a modern rifle than any antique that I had ever seen.  I was quite disappointed with the results so I got another plank, studied some pictures of antique rifles and rebuilt my   "Kentucky Rifle " using the parts from the first build.  It  wasn't all that good but considerably better than the first.

Over the next thirty years I continued to build rifles from a plank managing to build a more period correct piece than the previous  one.  When I was forty nine years old I was fortunate enough to take some gun  building lessons from Wallace Gussler,  John Binins, Tom Rendant,and Garry Brumfield.  This of course changed my building career to the point where I went into full time 'building,  still from a plank.  At some point the joints in my  shoulders, elbows, and hands couldn't hold up to the hours of constant rasping, filing and sanding so I made myself several stock patterns  that I used the most often and let Fred Miller and David Keck  shape them for me which took  the hurt out of building my basic stocks .  I have also used many of Jim Chambers kits and turned them into a David Price rifle that I have been proud of and  In the future I will probably use some of Jim Kibbler's kits also.  This  will allow me to  persue my  passion of working on the rifles that I so dearly love much longer.

The whole purpose of this post is to make everyone realize that it is not only the first time builder that will benefit from these modern well build kits but also  it will help others like myself who are at the age where we may not be physically capable of doing the strenuous work of building from a plank.

David Price       

[varsity07840]

I've been wondering about this myself, and watching the kits hit the market with mixed feelings.  Couple of thoughts:

1) I hope they will increase the appreciation among the muzzleloading community for good, historically correct architecture. There are a lot of folks out there, folks that are primarily shooters and hunters instead of builders and scholars of antiques, that only have a vague idea of what really good architecture looks like. I think that Mr. Kibler's kits are going to edge out a lot of the "Semi-custom" market that caters to that particular demographic group, which may have the long-term effect of encouraging certain other manufacturers to improve their product. Maybe.

2) Back when I was a teenager I got interested in building rifles not because I desired by be a gunsmith, but because I wanted a good replica of a Kentucky rifle so I could shoot it. There just wasn't anything even remotely resembling a longrifle available that was within my price range - even the Pedersoli and Hatfield rifles were too expensive and only marginally long enough to count as a "longrifle" for me. Now, while Kibler's kits are not inexpensive, they are apparently exceedingly easy to put together and use very high quality components, which is going to make them a very attractive proposition for someone in the position I was as a teenager (particularly if that someone has a rather more realistic appreciation of how difficult it is to build a decent gun than I did at the time), and thereby reduce what has historically been a big motivator for beginning builders. Whether this will have the effect of reducing the number of people willing to start building their own from scratch or not, I can't say - it is possible that having an easy introduction to building and a good model for subsequent builds will encourage more folks to strike out on their own.

3) The exact impact on custom makers will probably depend a lot on what models Kibler (or others following his lead) introduce. Right now Jim has two rather different kinds of guns - one is a fairly faithful reproduction of a specific NC rifle (albeit in flint instead of percussion), and the other is a very generic "colonial" rifle. At the risk of offending, I have to say that to me at least the Kibler Colonial looks more like a Kibler then any particular original colonial rifle - with that English lock I think it might end up being the brass-mounted variant of the "Early Southern Rifle" that has become so ubiquitous, as it doesn't really look like a PA rifle at all. While I imagine that right now Jim and Katherine are thinking about new models with an eye towards areas that aren't covered by other kits, I predict that eventually CNC kits will end up covering most of the most common rifles - Reading, Lancaster, Lehigh, Christian's Spring/Moravian, Early Southern, Fur Trade rifle, Classic Hawken, Jaeger, Southern Mountain, etc., while the custom makers supply the demand for copies of specific rifles, individual makers, or just more obscure schools. What I hope doesn't happen is that a couple interesting-but-offbeat originals get used as a basis for kits at the expense of more typical examples, the way that the Edward Marshall and Faber rifles have become copied ad nauseum.

I don't think that custom gunmaking is going to go away anytime soon - one of the drawbacks to very precisely machined kits with no wood left to remove is that they aren't going to be easy to kit-bash or customize. Only real options so far are patchbox, decoration, and wood type. While I'm sure that someone, a very skilled and clever someone, will eventually come around and prove that yes, you can make the Kibler Colonial into a stepped-wrist rifle, if you can pull that you can build from a blank and probably accomplish teh same result more easily. I think that is an inherent limitation with kits - the more freedom you have to do your own thing the greater the risk of failure, and the easier a kit is to build the less easy it is to alter.

4) Long term, the market may not be as saturated as some believe. Speaking as one of the much- (and often deservedly) criticized millennial generation, I'd like to observe that there is a very deep-seated dissatisfaction and frustration with the modern world as currently constituted among many younger folks, particularly men. I don't want to get into details of that here, but I do think that there is a lot of interest in self-sufficiency  - survivalism, under the name "prepping," has become mainstream if y'all haven't noticed, and here in Hippyville Asheville the Foxfire books are a perennial seller at the local bookstores - and a bit of nostalgia for a time of simpler certainties - I note that the Art of Manliness website is doing pretty well. Some of that is likely to translate into an interest in muzzlelaoders. What we younger guys often do not have is a lot of money, space, time, and/or a background in tool use. A rifle that can be assembled with basic tools in an apartment kitchen and is affordable to someone working two part-time service jobs might be just what this hobby needs to survive for another generation.



Overall, I think that the advent of CNC kits is likely to be a positive development. Making good guns cheaper and easier to acquire strikes me as an undeniable Good Thing. I have to admit that I'm inclined to be grumpy about it, partially out of snobbery (I may be the only person in the world that doesn't particularly care for the Colonial and I'm not thrilled by the idea of seeing them everywhere) and personal loyalty (Jim Chambers coached me through my first gun and Barbie's daughter attends the school at which my father teaches, so really don't want to see their business suffer), but objectively those aren't good reasons to dislike the new kits.

Do you shoot with the French Broad Rifles? If so we may have run into each other.

[varsity07840]

Wow!  I guess we must be doing someting right with this sort of reaction   I don't really even know where to start.  There have been a lot of excellent points raised for sure.  I agree with many and take issue with a few.

First, we don't wish any ill will on any other businesses.  All we're trying to do is make the best possible products we can and run the best business we can.  We simply want to suceed.  We'll not apalogize for that. 

Although our kits rely on CNC equipnment, there is a whole lot more than this to create a quality product.  I suspect few realize the extent of this.  The sucess we've had is a result of our our abilities, ambition and hard work.  We've put more time and energy into this business than most would believe.

I'm going to be blunt.  The quality of most muzzleloading components has been abysmal in my view.  Granted this comes from someone with a high end custom gunmaking background.  Many of these parts, kits etc. are made by those who don't have the ability to make a high quality historically correct rifle themselves.  How can this work?  I think we've seen how it works...

How often have beginners been basically sold a pile of junk and are then expected to make something quality out of it.  Quality issues that an experienced builder has difficulty dealing with.  This has been the norm in this industry.  How do you think this encourges those getting started?

We wanted to do things differently.  We're proud that we've developed ways to make the finest kits available.  The finest from design, historical correctness to construction and completeness.     

The future?  I can only speak to our goals.  We will keep adding to our offerings while continually improving quality of our current products.  They are very good, but can be better.  All this, while improving the many other aspects of our business. 

Progress is inevitable.  Nostalgia creeps in at times but in the big picture it never wins.

All the best,
Jim

Well said, Jim. You've made a great contribution to our sport in an incredibly short time. Thanks.

[hermdog]

Jim's kits will be the best thing for the muzzleloading community since the T/C rifles. Not all of us want to build a custom rifle. Not all of us have the ability to build a custom rifle. Not all of us want a custom rifle. Since the T/C kit rifles were discontinued there have been few options available for the average person to put a nice rifle together. Notice I said put a rifle together, not build a custom rifle. There is a difference. I finished a T/C kit in 1973 when you still had to draw file the barrel and polish the brass parts. I also completed a Uberti gun from parts purchased at the Log Cabin. It has been re-worked and is still a $200 gun. Many of the comments are correct, I am one of those who can take $900 worth of parts and build a $250 gun. I hope to buy one of Jim's kits. It will allow me to put together a nice rifle made from quality parts at a reasonable price. What more could the average guy want? Most of the negative comments seem to come from those who feel they will lose business because of the new CNC products. I don't think it will hurt them as much as they think. Maybe it will force some of the other kit makers to up their game and make a better product. We should be pleased that this may get more people involved in the M/L community. We should be pleased that there is a way to get involved with a quality rifle made from quality parts at a reasonable price. I applaud you, Jim Kibler. Keep up the good work. Design some more rifles. Give us more options. We need guys like you.

[flehto]

Although I might purchase one of Jim's kits because of my poor eyesight, I also admit that I'm biased w/ the use of CNC machines.

In 1956 I started a 5 yr tool and diemaker apprenticeship w/ the Square D Co and seeing it was  state indentured, the state of Wisconsin over saw my progress. These 5 yrs and the following years were the best years of my life...although I did manage an eng. dept. later on.

Well....after a few years in the trade, the advent of CNC, computer and tape controlled machines dominated and instead of being a tool and diemaker, I became a tool and die assembler which to say the least, I didn't like.

I'm definitely not a clairvoyant, but do see a similarity of my experience w/ Jim's kits.....assemblers in lieu of makers.   Perhaps in this day  of the  modern mindset, this is acceptable, but the long view  won't be evident for a number of years and  hopefully it will be positive.....Fred

[Jim Kibler]

Wow again!  I can't say enough about how all the comments encourages me.  Thank you.  I'd just like to make another point clear...

CNC definetely is a major part of our business, but there is MUCH more than this.  We treat our kits as a total product and try to control absolutely as much as we can in the process.  Processes have been developed and adjusted to continually refine the end product.  Many in process checks occur to insure quality.  We strive to produce the best possible waxes and castings.  We try to find the finest wood we can.  We strive to develope kits with the most pleasing and historically accurate design.  This even goes as far as trying to pack them in the best possible way.  In short we take more pride in our product than most would believe.

When you purchase one of our kits you are buying a product that has been given a great deal of care through the entire production process and can be looked as a complete designed / engineered unit.  This is very different to most other kit suppliers today.  Often times parts are purchased from a variety of sources, collected, packaged up and then delivered to the customer to sort out. 

This is why I say that we make a really good product now, but it can be better.  We run a good business now, but it can be better.  We'll keep working to make our business the best we possibly can.

Jim

[Bill Raby]

I think its great. Some other manufacturers will get hurt a bit in the short term. I think a good number of Mr Kibler's customers will realize that building a gun is not the hardest thing in the world and go on to building from planks. Brings a lot more people into the market and the other manufacturers will do good when these new builders start looking for more challenging projects. But they will all be looking for high quality parts even if they are not looking for having as much work already done. The mediocre professional builders will find new jobs. The top professional builders will raise their prices. But then who knows? If I was any good at predicting the future I would be out buying lottery tickets right now.

[Bob Roller]

Well said T*O*F

Well said indeed. I am one of the relics,one of the few who had some of the NMLRA founders on
my list of personal friends and am now 82.I have no guarantee of even getting down to the living room
after I write this and none of my survivors will give a hoot about black powder guns or kits.
The Kibler kits were a jolt to the semi finished gun kit market and will allow those without a lot
of experience to get a rifle with ALL parts being of top quality and that says the Kiblers think a
lot of the people who buy them.Two now and I would REALLY like to see a Manton styled half
stock flintlock rifle in a light 58 caliber.
I don't care if someone makes all parts of a lock or trigger with CNC machines and I really would
like to see a mainspring made with such equipment.
My methods rate right up there with the stone axe and if there is a way to get a good,reliable
spring with CNC then I would embrace it.
I believe that there will be a market within an already very limited market for hand/bench crafted rifles
and these upper end,fairly priced kits can do no harm.Production locks haven't hurt me and never will
and they have been improved a lot in the last 45 years.The picture of the 4 pin Henry lock Taylor posted
this morning shows anyone who sees it what I am still able to do and I am thankful for this.

Bob Roller

[n stephenson]

I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators  copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to  "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream!  They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands!  I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" .  In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.

[WadePatton]

We can bloviate all we want, but the reality of the situation is that a large percentage of us will not be around in the next 10 or 15 years to see any effects, if any.

Well that's a little breath of sunshine....

Yeah, I just turned fitty-something-small and expect another 35 or 40 years of stomping around yet.  But also it is up to us to paint the picture that others might look back on if they take interest in us or our perspectives.

[jm190]

Hi All,
   As someone new to this endeavor I thought I would weigh in on CNC packages.

   So far I’ve completed a Traditions kit and I’m two-thirds complete with a pre-carve package from a recommended major supplier. I chose the pre-carve package because the work involved did not frighten or concern me but I knew I wasn’t ready to build from a blank. Frankly, a Kibler package sounded too easy to assemble.

   The pre-carve package set me back over $840. While the pre-carve stock did not contain major issues there were some shape issues and an asymmetry with the width that took several hours to correct. The large brass parts were sand cast and I’m still dressing them up. Several of the other brass parts were questionable matches or just too generic for the period the rifle is supposed to represent. I had to fabricate two replacements for the originals that came in the package. I know this from looking at my copy of RCA Vol. 1 and hours of surfing board recommended websites. The barrel is a straight octagon. Still this build has been an educational experience and I don’t regret the time and money invested so far.

   So here’s my point, as someone new to this endeavor, for only $240 more I could have purchased one of Jim Kibler’s CNC’d packages with accurate architecture, accurate wax cast parts and a swamped barrel to boot. There would have been much less work involved and I would have ended up with better rifle. In hindsight, building a Kibler package first would have better prepared me for the pre-carve assembly. As someone just starting out it would have been less stressful with time and money better spent to build my confidence before moving on.

As a side note, my wife had been doing woodworking with a CNC machine before she experienced a major health issue. One of her last projects involved making violin and cello parts. The luthiers were amazed at the accuracy of the outlines of the fronts and backs she produced. Then they asked if she could do more shaping of what would be the inside surface of the pieces and she said “Yes, how close do you want the shape; my machine will do +/- 0.003”. They asked to cut the pieces with 0.010” of their originals so they still had enough wood to tune the pieces. This shaping on the CNC saved them 20-40 hours assembly time per instrument.

John

[WadePatton]

... : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" ...

Good points Nathan

Well the Kits Building section might need a split between "traditional" kits/precarves and the CNC-jobbies because there's a bit of work in the more common kits for sure.  Then finishing of course is all the same biz.

You left out the step: Make a video of "opening the box and being hyped up" which is a big deal on YT these days.  I'll never get that.   Sure, it's fun for ME to open a box, but I get no charge out of watching YOU open a box.  Ever.  Unless I gifted you something... anyhooters I hadda digression there. 

You're straight on the old-type kits though.  Methinks they'll eventually all be replaced by CNC-gineered stuff as folks who understand how to operate manual machines and pantographs fade into the sunset.   I'm trying not to fade too quickly, and wish the same for all my maker pals.  Machines rarely give me the "sensory feedback" I crave when doing work (like the bite of a file on steel or the gnarly grain giving up the ghost against a perfectly sharp edge--but that's a personal thing, not a business one.

I'm thinking that creating a better representation of the past is better for history, no matter the means of production.  That those who produce things that have been made for hundreds of years shall always have  some struggle with means of producing those items with regard to modernization and availability of parts as well as support from any market for such goods. 

Anything that keeps the market moving and serves history is good for me.  If this market fails me, I'll make other things, I'm finally satisfied that that is what I must do-Make things whether I starve or shine depends a lot on where I focus my efforts and the viability of that particular market.

Going now to find some more focus.   

[oldtravler61]

  This will be my last comment on this. About the use of CNC machines. Does anyone realise that back in the day. Pick which century you want that they the craftsmen didn't move towards faster an better tools for doing there work?
  How many custom builders send there barrels an stocks out to have there ram rod an barrel channels done by modern means? If they had it they would have used it. It saved them time. Which made them more money.
  What I have noticed over the years. Good bad or otherwise. The easier something is with good quality you draw more interest. Jim's products have done just that. By the way that's Jim Chambers too..!
   There both too botched bussiness people who stand behind their products.   Oldtravler

[oldtravler61]

  This will be my last comment on this. About the use of CNC machines. Does anyone realise that back in the day. Pick which century you want that they the craftsmen didn't move towards faster an better tools for doing there work?
  How many custom builders send there barrels an stocks out to have there ram rod an barrel channels done by modern means? If they had it they would have used it. It saved them time. Which made them more money.
  What I have noticed over the years. Good bad or otherwise. The easier something is with good quality you draw more interest. Jim's products have done just that. By the way that's Jim Chambers too..!
   There both two great bussiness people who stand behind their products.   Oldtravler

[varsity07840]

I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators  copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to  "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream!  They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands!  I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" .  In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.

When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle.  That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple  SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.