John Bull progress

[pjmcdonald]

I started this rifle at Jim Parker's (Bama) class back in March. He is mentoring me through the process of my first build from a blank. That said, all mistakes and errors are mine!

I haven't had much time to work on it but have done a little clean-up and shaping since class. Thought I would post some pictures for your review and feedback. I am trying not to get too far ahead of myself since I'll be back at Jim's in October to try to finish it.

First photos are where I left off in March. Very helpful to be able to compare mine to the original.























This next batch of photos is where I am currently. It helps me tremendously to look at my own photos. I can see now where I have some problems creeping in. For example, I see some twist in the butt stock. I also see where I'm getting off on the cheek rest.

















I can't do much more with the lower stock around the trigger until I get back to forge the trigger guard. I'm also going to wait until I can get some guidance on better shaping the side panels. I've deliberately left things fat for now. I got heavy handed with the rasps on the forestock back in March so no more to come off there. Right now, scrapers and light sandpaper. Some file work on the metal to start cleaning it up.

I got a couple hard lessons about leaving things in my shop. An unconditioned shop in Mississippi heat and humidity is not kind to metal. Created more work for myself to clean up. The nose cap was already tight to the barrel and did not want to let go when I tried to remove the barrel. Thankfully, I didn't ruin the stock. I did put a small crack in the forestock but found plenty of resources here on how to repair. Should be un-noticeable when done. Tightbond and a little clean-up. Didn't get a photo of that. I was so disgusted with myself for doing it the first place that by the time I finished gluing it up, I was done for the day.

Regards,

Paul

[mountainman70]

I like the "done for the day"quote. That will save a lot of grief,if we just walk away. I have to eat regulary, blood sugar drops and I get even more cantankerous than I already am. So,just take a break,sarge !
 I like that style of SMR. I just finished a cherry SMR of similar architecture,and I had MANY walk aways. Took me 2 years to build,several other guns built in the meantime.
Keep at it, slow your roll,and be careful of digital pics,sometimes what the camera shows aint right. If it looks off to your eyes, most the time it is.
When you finish, lots of good lessoms will be under your belt
 Have a goodun PJ
Welcome to the forum,and that is a mighty interesting piece of wood if I do say so !!
best regards, Dave F

[Elnathan]

I like rifle, and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one!

One thing that I see is the profile of the comb nose - the original has a nice curve to it, whereas your is a bit more abrupt. That really changes the overall look of the stock. I don't know if that is intentional or not, but I at least much prefer the original shape.

The top of the wrist, behind the barrel tang, is a bit higher than on the original, I think, and so the wrist tapers a bit more dramatically towards the rear, only to start curving back up before it hits the comb. If it was my project, I'd look very hard at the upper lines of the wrist and try to get the profile as close to the original as I could - I think getting the wrist to look right, particularly around that very subtle step, is going to be very difficult if that upper profile isn't done first.

I've never done a stepped wrist, but waiting until the trigger guard is in hand before finishing the wrist makes sense to me. Others with more experience may have better ideas, but I do think that getting the profile lines of the comb nose and the top of the wrist right should be the first step, so that you can better judge the angles and proportions of the bottom of the wrist and butt. After getting those right you can inlet the trigger guard and then do the final sculpting of the lock-panels/wrist/comb-nose. That is how I'd approach the problem, anyway. Curious to hear what others have to say.

You might also consider replacing that nose-cap with a slightly longer one, so that the stock gets all the way to the muzzle. Leaving that much barrel sticking out looks wrong, IMHO.

I have a bunch of pics of the original that I'd be happy to share if Bama approves.

[little joe]

Is the butt mounted at an   angle, (vertical) to the rest of the stock? I have saw some old ones where some very knowledgeable people thought they were made that way to give some cast off to the comb.

[pjmcdonald]

Elnathan,

I'd appreciate more pics. I'll be back at Bama's in October for a "finish what you started" class but more reference material is always a good thing. Agree regarding the nose. I hesitate to get too aggressive with taking off material at this point. Jim saved me from a a few near disasters last time. I took the "take off wood, then take off more" advice a little too much to heart.

I'll have to look closely at the wrist. It still looks thick to me so I think there is some room to dress it up a bit better.

Agree on the nose cap. First one I've made from scratch. Guess I get to practice making another. But at least I won't mess up anything on the rifle if I'm pounding on a piece of metal somewhere else!

little joe,

I did not intend to mount the butt at an angle but it does have a slight cant. Turns out to be a happy accident. Shouldering the rifle, it fits me very naturally. I'm not going to try to straighten it.

[little joe]

PJ  Fred Miller was showing me an origional that was mounted that way, on purpose or not I do not know, however was very comfrontable to shoulder.Fred thought it was made that way on purpose

[T*O*F]

1.  Original's thimbles are almost totally exposed.  Yours ain't.
2.  Nosecap to front thimble is almost a straight line.  Yours ain't.
3.  Wood is rounded at transition of rear thimble's tang.  Yours ain't.
4.  2 and 3 most likely can be cured by #1.
5.  Area forward of trigger is flat.  Yours is rounded.
6.  Both sides of comb are too sharp.  Indent at wrist needs to be deepened and concaved more.

[bama]

 Elnathan, I would be very pleased for you to share any photos that you have. I like looking at good rifles just as much as the next guy.

Just so everyone know's and understands this project was Paul's second build, the first being a precarve Lancaster kit from Tennessee Valley Manufacturing. He started with a blank that had the barrel and ram rod groove cut but not drilled. In 9 days he inlet the lock and triggers and barrel tang, made and inlet the butt plate, thimbles, side plates and nose cap and rough shaped the stock. He made and installed the under lugs, drilled and pinned the barrel lugs, drilled and pinned the thimbles, drilled and tapped the lock bolts and barrel tang. Drilled the ram rod hole to full depth. Oh I forgot to mention that he forged the butt plate.

Not to bad for nine days. Yes, he has some refinements to make but there is room to make most of the suggestions that have been mentioned. All of which I think were good and positive suggestions for Paul.

Paul, you may not remember but when we laid out the butt stock of this rifle we put about a 1/4" of cast off in it. The we canted the toe of the butt plate to line up with the center of the trigger guard. Doing this keeps the center line of the bottom of the stock straight and keeps you from having to put a kink in the trigger guard to line up with the amount of cast off in the top of the stock. If viewed from the back side of the butt plate as your photos do, it makes the stock look twisted. As you stated the rifle shoulders very well, any person that has ever mounted a butt plate in this manor will tell you this is one thing that makes for a well fitting and fast pointing rifle.

Paul and his dad did a great job in class and I am looking forward to the class in October. The class is filled up with 5 students and I am looking forward to have a wonderful time.

[Elnathan]

I've got 21 photos total. Posting all of these would break the forum, I suspect, so here are some of the better ones:










The whole album is here: https://ibb.co/album/gU7C8v

One interesting thing about the architecture of this rifle is that the line of the wrist and the line of the lower butt aren't parallel. That is pretty common on stepped wrists, but usually they are arranged so that the overall effect is as if the stock had a bit of a belly, whereas here it is reversed and the overall  effect is as if the stock had a Roman nose shape, even though the lower lines are straight or nearly so. RCA 43 has a similar lower stock line - I doubt that there is any direct connection, but it is interesting to note.

[little joe]

Elanthan  On the origional is the trigger guard attached to the front extension by a screw?

[Elnathan]

I didn't notice either way when I was taking pictures. Looking at the pictures, though, I see a pin right under the rear lock bolt washer, which in the right place to run through a tab in the triggerguard and doesn't have a purpose otherwise, so I feel like I'm pretty safe in saying that it is pinned on.  I think that little dimple or whatever it is on front extension is an old handling mark, not a screw.

I should probably clarify that I am not the owner of the rifle, I just took some pictures and measurements at a gunshow a year and a bit ago.

[pjmcdonald]

Jim, thanks as always for the encouragement and guidance. I remembered putting cast off in pop's but forgot there was some in mine until I looked at it again.

Elnathan, thank you for the additional photos. I have a few reference photos from class but this helps me a lot. The original in-hand is the best reference, of course. But this helps me remember little cues while I'm in my own shop.

T*O*F, to your points, I'm working on 1, as slowly and carefully as I know how. I want to leave final finishing until I can get back to Jim's and compare again to original in person. As you noted, taking care of 1 is helping 2 and 3. I'm deliberately leaving 5 until I get the trigger guard forged. I don't want to remove too much wood, flatting that area, until I get a better idea how it will all fit together. Thanks for the observation on 6. Back to the scrapers.

Oh, and Elnathan, to your point about the nose cap - I spent several hours last night fabricating a new nose cap. I was all proud of myself, taking my time and shaping the metal. Felt like I had much smoother curves and a better cap. Until I fit it up. I then realized when cutting my sheet metal, I cut the wrong line and ended up making an even shorter nose cap. Instead of 1/4" longer, I made a beautiful new nose cap 1/4" shorter. Guess I'll be making another tonight. Oh well, chalk it up to experience and throw it in the scrap bin. May get used on another project some day. I love this hobby!

PJ

[T*O*F]

Thanks for the observation on 6.

Notice that the area above the lock molding is recessed on both sides.  As those recesses are blended back, it has the effect of making the wrist smaller.  Following that even further back, it will solve much of your comb problem. 

I told Curtis several years ago to spend more time thinking ahead than working.  Any operation done at the wrong time can have an effect on future operations.  You need to identify them before you reach them.  Saves a lot of headaches.

[pjmcdonald]

T*O*F -

Thank you! I just had an "Aha!" moment. Still so much to learn....

PJ

[pjmcdonald]

Jim, Elnathan,

Replaced nose cap. Better? Still have some fitting up, filing, and finishing.

[Craig Wilcox]

Looking very good.  Whoever coined the phrase "The Devil is in the details" must have been a longrifle builder!

[Elnathan]

The new nose capooks much better to me.

I'm glad the photos are useful. When I run across a gun I like and think I might want to reproduce someday, I try to get angle shots of areas like the wrist, forearm at the entry thimble, cheekpiece, and profile shots of the buttplate as well as the usual profile shots normally found in books. Haven't yet tried to build a copy of a rifle that I have photographed in any way, so I'm still kind of guessing at what I need to record.

[bama]

Great job on the nose cap Paul, you are doing great.

 Somebody mentioned the wood in earlier reply so I thought I would give you a little background on the stock blank.  I cut that blank out of a 3" thick, 9' long by 3' wide plank that I got from a guy in southern Indiana a couple of years ago. It has a few worm holes but the stripping is beautiful and consistent throughout the stock. These worm holes will be patched and when stained will be almost invisible. I got 4 stocks with really fine stripes and 3 with decent stripping. You got the best of the bunch and I am looking forward to seeing you finishing up in October.