Author Topic: Bucks County (Read 13055 times)

yip · « **Reply #25 on:** August 21, 2018, 08:22:49 PM »

mr bubbles; i would like to know more about this, a picture is worth a thousand words.please clearfy

Scout · « **Reply #26 on:** August 22, 2018, 12:24:10 AM »

Fred,
I sent you a PM about the patchbox.

Skip

flehto · « **Reply #27 on:** August 22, 2018, 01:50:24 AM »

Read your PM. I think you can also buy that Pbox.......Fred

Mr. Bubbles · « **Reply #28 on:** August 22, 2018, 08:21:03 PM »

This is the Kuntz # 5 gun on the KRA disc on Lehigh County guns. Do you see where the curve in the belly line is somewhat interrupted by the rear foot of the TG and creates a bit of a flat spot?

yip · « **Reply #29 on:** August 22, 2018, 08:44:45 PM »

mr.bubbles; yes i can see what your talking about, thanks. how do i get that disc?

Mr. Bubbles · « **Reply #30 on:** August 22, 2018, 09:07:03 PM »

Yeah it's a real subtle thing. You only see it if you're really looking for it. It could be the light in the photo too creating an illusion.
It might be unique to Kuntz, (one reference I found for this gun attributed it to Moll actually) but I don't really think so.

You can call or write the Kentucky Rifle Assn for it. I think it's about $20-$25. It's maybe the best single reference on Lehigh County guns out there. They probably have on on Bucks guns too, but to this point, I haven't built one of those. Fred is encouraging me to try one though.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #31 on:** August 22, 2018, 10:18:09 PM »

Quote from: yip on August 15, 2018, 11:09:23 PM

looking for info on Buck County rifles, photos are good, looking for measurements.

The obvious solution is you should buy some books, lots of them. Shumway's Vol I&II would be a good start as are the KRA discs mentioned above. Most folks I know that build guns to any degree at all have rather large libraries. Of course those that use only the internet as a source seem to be coming more common, but also less informed. (edited by tdg)

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #32 on:** August 22, 2018, 10:55:15 PM »

Quote from: yip on August 22, 2018, 08:44:45 PM

mr.bubbles; yes i can see what your talking about, thanks. how do i get that disc?

Check here :
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22518.0
Dennis

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #33 on:** August 23, 2018, 05:50:38 AM »

Referring to the Kuntz rifle pictured above, I suggest to you that there is no step in the bottom line of the buttstock. If you see one, it is an illusion, created by the inlet of the rear extension of the rigger guard, the abrupt squared off carving in the moulding, and the continuous line of the stock flowing rearward from the triggers. From the forward end of the lower stock moulding, the wrist is given a generous roundness, and that adds to the illusion.

elkhorne · « **Reply #34 on:** August 23, 2018, 06:39:18 AM »

JTR,
It would be great if you could share the measurements and some of the photos of your original Bucks County rifle on here for all to see and learn. Agree that the way to get one of these rifles as close to HC right, is study, study and study! The KRF discs are great as well as some of their books but just seeing N original rifle goes a long way to learning. I've got all the supplies to build a BC and Lehigh but have been reading everything I could find on these two schools and about ready to start in soon. Than is.
elkhorne

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #35 on:** August 23, 2018, 02:49:51 PM »

Quote from: yip on August 23, 2018, 01:22:07 AM

thanks JTR and Dennis guess i'll do more reach and stop asking dumb questions

Actually not dumb at all. Just not answerable. I'd ask what mounts, lock, and barrel profile are most common, that will give you a good place to start. I personally wouldn't know which parts to recommend as Bucks Co. guns aren't my bag. your actual measurements will depend on what parts you choose to use. As far as pictures go, Shumway's books, Kindig, and the KRA discs are probably the best choices.
In all seriousness, you really should start collecting a library of resource material. I don't know how you would go about building these with out some research.
Sorry I may have offended you.

yip · « **Reply #36 on:** August 23, 2018, 03:19:03 PM »

Mike; i'm not a serious builder just like the lines of B.C., don't profess to be as good as you or anyone on here all i do is throw em together and hope for the best. i do try too improve with each one i do thats all.

rich pierce · « **Reply #37 on:** August 23, 2018, 03:27:59 PM »

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on August 23, 2018, 05:50:38 AM

Referring to the Kuntz rifle pictured above, I suggest to you that there is no step in the bottom line of the buttstock. If you see one, it is an illusion, created by the inlet of the rear extension of the rigger guard, the abrupt squared off carving in the moulding, and the continuous line of the stock flowing rearward from the triggers. From the forward end of the lower stock moulding, the wrist is given a generous roundness, and that adds to the illusion.

I agree, and that is the devilment of photographs. We can learn a lot but also miss some things from the photo books. Pictures taken from slanting angles often help me a lot and I try to take those when photographing originals.

Mr. Bubbles · « **Reply #38 on:** August 23, 2018, 06:55:45 PM »

Though I defer to Taylor's vastly greater experience, I must respectfully disagree that it is the angles and the light that cause an illusion of a flat spot. I do indeed believe that the rear foot itself is flat rather than curved. If the curve continued through the foot itself then the front and rear of it would be inletted deeper than the center. Though the below pictures arent the same as handling the original, I think they help with some of the detail to the area.

ammonium sulfate symbol

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #39 on:** August 23, 2018, 07:27:34 PM »

I shall make only one more attempt to persuade you that there is no step in the bottom line of this buttstock. The wrist forward of the moulding is rounded down to the small flat of the bottom line, but the area of the inlet of the trigger guard return is wider and flat, and since the rifle is rolled ever so slightly, it appears that there is a step at that transition. So I believe the bottom line is a continuous curve without a step...and I could be wrong.

This image shows it even better!

Mr. Bubbles · « **Reply #40 on:** August 23, 2018, 08:48:04 PM »

Y'know, I think you're right. It looks like given the choice of inletting the TG to be flush, or continuing the curve through it and having the inlet not quite be flush for the TG, Kuntz chose to continue the curve. Of course, another alternative might have been to bend the TG foot ever so slightly too, to conform with the stock's curve through that area. I'm not aware of any originals that did that, but again, I'm happy to be corrected too.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #41 on:** August 23, 2018, 09:23:03 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Bubbles on August 23, 2018, 08:48:04 PM

Y'know, I think you're right. It looks like given the choice of inletting the TG to be flush, or continuing the curve through it and having the inlet not quite be flush for the TG, Kuntz chose to continue the curve. Of course, another alternative might have been to bend the TG foot ever so slightly too, to conform with the stock's curve through that area. I'm not aware of any originals that did that, but again, I'm happy to be corrected too.

It appears to me that the curve where the rear TG finial lays is so slight as to be imperceptible. The curve of the lower buttstock picks up speed as it continues to the rear. At least in this case that's what I always thought. But , rifles from this area have quite a bit of variation, different makers used different techniques. I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong when speaking in generalities here. What Might be right for Kuntz might be wrong for Rupp etc.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #42 on:** August 23, 2018, 10:04:16 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Bubbles on August 23, 2018, 08:48:04 PM

Y'know, I think you're right. It looks like given the choice of inletting the TG to be flush, or continuing the curve through it and having the inlet not quite be flush for the TG, Kuntz chose to continue the curve. Of course, another alternative might have been to bend the TG foot ever so slightly too, to conform with the stock's curve through that area. I'm not aware of any originals that did that, but again, I'm happy to be corrected too.

As best as I can tell they're all microscopically curved maybe 2 degrees or so. You put the curve in the lower portion of the stock and shape the flat, and later on you inlet the guard. Inlet the rear, give it a whack or two with the butt of the chisel to make sure it fits well and either screw it or pin it. It's the 'whack' that typically adds imho a degree or two of curve to really mate up with the very gradual flat curvature (which is typically less in that area than further on down).

Come to think of it there are a whole lot of various aspects of rifle building which involve a plain old good whack.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #43 on:** August 23, 2018, 11:27:43 PM »

Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on August 23, 2018, 10:04:16 PM

Quote from: Mr. Bubbles on August 23, 2018, 08:48:04 PM
Y'know, I think you're right. It looks like given the choice of inletting the TG to be flush, or continuing the curve through it and having the inlet not quite be flush for the TG, Kuntz chose to continue the curve. Of course, another alternative might have been to bend the TG foot ever so slightly too, to conform with the stock's curve through that area. I'm not aware of any originals that did that, but again, I'm happy to be corrected too.

As best as I can tell they're all microscopically curved maybe 2 degrees or so. You put the curve in the lower portion of the stock and shape the flat, and later on you inlet the guard. Inlet the rear, give it a whack or two with the butt of the chisel to make sure it fits well and either screw it or pin it. It's the 'whack' that typically adds imho a degree or two of curve to really mate up with the very gradual flat curvature (which is typically less in that area than further on down).

Come to think of it there are a whole lot of various aspects of rifle building which involve a plain old good whack.

Always been my experience as well, don't want anything getting sassy with you.

yip · « **Reply #44 on:** August 24, 2018, 01:18:26 AM »

Fred; i received your drawing today, i appreciate it, will incorpate in my next build. boy this topic sure created a much of $#@*, all i wante d to do is copy your lines as close as possible, you made one honey of a rifle. i admit i'm no pro builder just trying to keep my mind busy doing what i like and try my hand at doing right. i hope i didn't start any trouble out there..............yip

flehto · « **Reply #45 on:** August 24, 2018, 01:34:28 AM »

What complications? Everybody just contributes as best they know how?

By the way....to use the template tracing you need these drops....comb nose is 1-9/16" and the drop at heel is 3-1/4". These drops came off my present build.

I took some measurements off my present build and have them if anyone needs them in the future. .....Fred

PrairieD · « **Reply #46 on:** August 24, 2018, 02:09:11 AM »

Thank you, Fred! The copy of your tracing (also) arrived in the mail today -- I'll have to apply your drop dimensions for the nose & heel to my copy and see how it compares with "Verner"

Mike C.
Pretty Prairie, KS

flehto · « **Reply #47 on:** August 24, 2018, 05:03:59 AM »

I've just sent another tracing of my Shuler BC template to a fellow member and I think I overlooked one other request but don't know who it is. If I told someone I would send the tracing, please contact me. After 9 tracings sent, the one I overlooked is the last one.....Fred

smallpatch · « **Reply #48 on:** August 24, 2018, 05:33:22 AM »

Taylor's right, no step. One continuous, very wide arc.

VP · « **Reply #49 on:** August 24, 2018, 05:47:45 AM »

Yip,

I think it would help your efforts if you would get the CD from the Kentucky Rifle Foundation. It's called "Lehigh Valley 1780 - 1820" and it's from the 2010 KRA President's display. It has twenty great Lehigh rifles on it with ten to fourteen high resolution shots of each rifle. It is only $20 plush S&H. Here is the link to our site. You can pay with credit card, Paypal or send us a check.

http://kentuckyriflefoundation.org/krf-store/

VP

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Author Topic: Bucks County (Read 13055 times)