54 cal smoothbore accuracy/whats the best they can do

[Daryl]

Mike - all of which is pretty much as stated way back on page 1 of this rather elongated thread. Some smoothies seem to shoot better than others, some are easier to shoot than others. If the bore is true and straight, it will be easier to shoot.
; I've made some impressive groups at 50 yards with a .44 smoothie, and with a 20 bore smoothie. I've seen Taylor put them into 2 1/2" at 50 yards offhand with a 10 bore Bess, and then have difficulty getting 2 out of 5 within 2" of each other.  This is the world of smoothbores, as indicated by Dan - inconsistant at best, but can be very rewarding as well.

[northmn]

Daryl, just out of curiosity, do the good smoothbore shots weigh and sort the ball very carefully?

DP

[Mike R]

Daryl, just out of curiosity, do the good smoothbore shots weigh and sort the ball very carefully?

DP

I don't know enough smoothbore shooters to answer that specifically, but Sam Fadala in his Blackpowder guide advised just that as one step in achieving acceptable accuracy. 

[northmn]

I do for mine also, but was wondering?  I think it would be more critical for a smoothbore.  I am sure that if Daryl doesn't, the advice of Mr. Fadala will sway him to start.

DP

[Daryl]

No - I don't weigh my balls. I am careful when casting, although I cast very fast compared to some.  Rifle bullets I weigh in batches of randomly sampled lots - say 10 out of 50 to check evenness and they're most always spot-on.  I know benchrest shooters weigh round balls and it is a good idea - I can't be bothered.
: As to Sam - he's on a long learning streak, although he does repeat someone else's wisdom at times - none of which is his idea. I just can't get over his recurring anti-gasget ideas.
: LB, Crispy and Hatchet Jack are the best smoothie shooters we've got here - and they are all good but none of them weigh balls I am sure. Hatchet jack just bopught a new measure, so he may weigh a few just to see what they actually weigh when cast in WW compared to pure lead. The scale is purely for weighing powder charges and slugs for his new long range Rolling Block.
:  Experience in casting balls and bullets will eliminate or surely reduce the need for weighing.  I find the bottom pour works well for me with my method, while others get large variations when using one, even long-term casters.  You get a 'feel' for which ones go back into the pot while casting. When I dipped, most every one in a 100 bullet or ball session would be almost perfect when sample weighed. This is with Lyman blocks - Lee moulds on the other hand are very much more prone to picking up particles of lead that 'adjust' the ball's weight. I find with the bottom pour, I can get a perfect sprue puddle on the sprue plate about every time as well as casting with no impurities that also cause light weights.  The dipper, for me is prone to picking up dross wich transfers to the balls or bullets.  This is especially perplexing at the higher temps I cast.

[Roger Fisher]

hello all,just started messing around with a new 54 cal 44"getz smoothie an was wondering,how much accuracy can i expect before i drive my self nuts trying to get results for match shooting/hunting.I went out to the range one time an managed three different combination with three different ball sizes/three different patch thickness/three different loads,an a three shot 2" group was the best i could muster upwith them all.Can anybody get a 1" group at 50 yrds with there 54 cal smoothies.It seem's like the barrel likes hotter loads  more then low loads  for accuracy.85 grains of 3f was best so far.I wondered if anybody out there shoots 90 or 100 gr loads with better results.If anybody can steer me with this i would appreciate it........sonny

Turning back to this young man's initial question:::: Taling offhand now since that is mainly the shots we take with our knuckleballers....  If you can keep 'em in the 6" black bull at 50 yds you will be in the running to win the match!!!  (5 shots)

[Mike R]

I do for mine also, but was wondering?  I think it would be more critical for a smoothbore.  I am sure that if Daryl doesn't, the advice of Mr. Fadala will sway him to start.

DP

In this particular case Sam was claiming to be reporting on tests he personally made with smoothbores. Like others, I find his advice often a mixture of fact and fancy. 

[northmn]

Daryl has always been impressed with Sam's ideas, that why I thought I would bring it up when I read your reference to him, it was all in fun.  Dpharsis keeps mentioning the inevitable flyers, which could be a combination of about anything you can think of.  Uneven ball weight being one.  While i cannot prove it at this time I think it may affect smaller bores like the 54 more than the bigger ones. (heck of a note when you call a 54  a "small bore".

DP

[Daryl]

DP - I figured that's where you were headed. You are too level headed a guy to do otherwise.  I doubt Dan's fliers were due to ball problems, other than typical smoothbore idiosyncrasies.  We cross-mailed each other when he was doing his testing and his results are about typical.  Personally, I've not seen smoothbores produce any 2", 50 yard groups nor any of 1" persuasion we hear of occasionally.   A person should be able to compete in chunk matches with such a smoothbore, and win.  If the shots were reasonably centred on the X, that smoothie would run strings of 2 1/2" to 3".  That would win most of the chunk matches in the States and set records as well. The Bevel brothers would probably switch to smoothbores. 
edit to spell check - good thing I did- should get into that habit.

[roundball]

I have relatively short smoothbore experience compared to many, but never-the-less I have definitely come to the conclusion that a good stout load helps accuracy from a smooth bore...keep them under a good head of steam all the way to the target...mine are the GM smooth rifle barrels with a rear sight but the bores are still smooth and they do extremely well with max or near max powder charges...

[Roger Fisher]

I have relatively short smoothbore experience compared to many, but never-the-less I have definitely come to the conclusion that a good stout load helps accuracy from a smooth bore...keep them under a good head of steam all the way to the target...mine are the GM smooth rifle barrels with a rear sight but the bores are still smooth and they do extremely well with max or near max powder charges...

What you say is interesting!  Here I've been under the impression (probably bass ackwards) That loading them tight and using too heavy a charge will result in barrel whip and fliers.  Am I off the mark again?  Sometimes I feel like a salmon swimming upstream to get rid of a heavy load

[Leatherbelly]

Roger,
 Just my thoughts on whip or lash in a smoothie, Very little I think. IIRC, lash is obtained from rifling, and the faster the twist, the more the lash. I think Roundballs idea is right on the money. My new smoothie shoots better with a 80gr charge of 2f and a 25 thou patch shooting a .595 pure. Sloppy wet patch,always. 

[Daryl]

LB- your smoothie is a 20 bore designed for RB & shot, and in that respect with a round ball, 80gr. 2F is a moderate charge only. I would guess that a 90 or 120gr. charge would be more in keeping with that bore size when using RB, such as would be used in a rifled bore that size.
: Kipp's 20bore put 5 consecutive shots into just under 3" at 50 yards, but I were using only 85gr. 2F.  It seemed to like that load - no rear sight so we didn't try any more.

[Leatherbelly]

Can't shoot those heavy charges all day. Not for me,shoulders kaput.

[don getz]

Sonny.....I think you are disallusioned if you think you can go out and shoot 1" groups with a smoothbore at 50 yards.
Personally, I have never seen one shoot that well.  I have been shooting for a long time, and I know there are a lot of
good shooters on this forum, but I am willing to bet that there are more shooters on this forum that can't even do this
with a rifle.  There are many good shooters out there that can do this day in a day out, I am just saying that the majority
of shooters can't do it........Don

[sonny]

don...........you feel a stout load with smaller ball an thicker sloppy patch is the prefered combo with most smoothie shooters?I have talked with some smoothie shooters an they told me low power loads is the way of it!!!!Would'nt a slow ball dance to the target,an print randomly,compaired to a hot load driving the non spinning ballto target?....sonny

[northmn]

A stout load in a ML rifle starts at about 1/2 the ball weight.  A 120 grain charge in a 20 bore is close but still a little lighter.  110 in a 54 would be a stout load.  I used about 110 in 12 gauges because that was about all I really wanted to shoot and they destroyed gongs.  I have no idea what a good load would be in a 45 cal smoothie for instance.  Even so, you need enough charge so that you cannot catch the ball with a catcher's mitt for any practical use.

DP 

[Leatherbelly]

sonny,
 Every rifle has a pet load and every rifle(at least the ones that I've shot /owned) is a bit different. Same with the Smoothbore. I owned a .62 Tulle tradegun that liked a thin patch, .600 ball and 70gr. of 2fg.Shot like a house on fire! This same load in my Pa Fowler,not enough steam! Shoot 80grs. and up,she does good. So what can I say! Experimenting is the key.Daryls teases me about my squib loads but hey! they work for me! If you are going hunting with your Smoothie,then the shoulder busting ,cheek chopping big humping loads are OK.You only get one shot! I just tone mine down for the range.
  I like to watch the real good smoothie shooters. Last year at our Provincial Rondy,a gal from Idaho,Marilyn,I think her name was, shot a Tulle tradegun that put most of the men to shame(more like *#)*^~ them off). I watched her shoot.She loaded in a very consistent way,same same. And her hold was steady as a rock. I asked her what her charge was behind a .600 round ball? A mere 60grs. of  2fg. She almost aced the trailwalk,dropping only two or three targets.
  Just don't expect rifle-like accuracy with your smooth gun. Expect a bigger challenge! The best they can do is the best YOU can do. JMHO.

[Leatherbelly]

BTW,
 We host the World Series of Smoothbore shooting at Heffley Creek Rendezvous. If interested, pm or emale me. Aug.23rd thru Sept.1st. If you want to compete with the best in the world,be there.hehehe! Me and Sockeye Sam are swimming upstream with a big load and gonna stir them up!LOL!! You gonna show up Roger Fisherman?!

[bob in the woods]

Just for interest sake....my 10 bore Fowler shot very well with only 65 gr FFFg . Then accuracy fell off until over 100. [FFg }   Needless to say, I don't wack myself to death shooting paper with my heavy loads. Each gun is different. My .45 cal rifle absolutely loves 25 gr 3 F.  Not much use for much else but paper, but so what. I need to go to 65 gr to get back to the same accuracy. On a nice calm day, I just lob them in with the 25 gr charge and smile when the other shooters wonder at the small "pop" my gun makes.
Holding through is the main challenge when shooting the light loads. Barrel time is longer.
Just my 1 1/2 cents.

[Daryl]

I have to agree with LB - the best smoothbore shooting I've ever seen, happens at Hefley Creek Rendezvous.  These guys and gals are good because teh smoothbore is ALL they shoot and they shoot often - must!
: The larger the bore, the heavier the charge is needed, of course. Most smoothbores are too light to shoot many shots of heavy loads, just as LB indicated.
: Although some people acknoledge they get the best results with heavy charges, I believe most smoothbores probably shoot their best with reduced chargs, compared to same calibre rifles. This was true in the late 1700's and early 1800's with the US military muskets.  In testing, it is recorded they increased hits at close range by 3 times over the service charge, by reducing the charge to 1/3 normal. Since that testing was prior to 1820, that would put the reduced charge at 55gr. instead of 165gr. Of course, 55gr. probably wouldn't shoot through the horse and kill the ahh, First Nations Person on the far side, as would the normal 165gr. charge. I can't imagine shooting a 1777 (Charleville copy) with that charge - imagine the nerve and tissue damage to the cheek bone?. Those guns were horrible.

[northmn]

I think the attraction to smoothbores is the fact that they are so much lighter than rifles.  I do not disagree with Dpharsis when he says that with a ball a rifle will do better in about any situation. Lugging the things around to get them there is the problem.  I have heard that the standard charge for a Bess with buck and ball was 150 grains.  That also would leave some of us crippled.  There was also a reason they added the buckshot over the ball.   
When you mention that hits increased with lighter loads, that does not necessarily imply the intrinsic precision or grouping ability of the load, it just means that the average trooper could shoot better with it, which is more important anyway. Thats why modern soldiers shoot a 22.  I assembled a 62 rifle for a person out of a kit for an individual.  It had about a 1/2 inch deep breechplug.  Rightly or wrongly I told him not to go too overboard on his loads and keep them somewhere in the neighborhood of under 120 grains or less.  He liked to use 70 grains of 2f and took a nice 8 point buck with it.  As there was a discussion that showed an insignificant difference between smooth bores and rifles, I suggest that that would work in a smoothbore as well.

DP

[Roger Fisher]

BTW,
 We host the World Series of Smoothbore shooting at Heffley Creek Rendezvous. If interested, pm or emale me. Aug.23rd thru Sept.1st. If you want to compete with the best in the world,be there.hehehe! Me and Sockeye Sam are swimming upstream with a big load and gonna stir them up!LOL!! You gonna show up Roger Fisherman?!

Boy would I ever love to show up - It may as well be on the moon - distance wise.  This Sunday our 1 day shoot - 8 minutes from my house Smoothy-rifle paper and silohuettes - chunk       Next weekend Fri- SAt and Sunday Whispering Pines abt 2 3/4 hrs from the house - The following Sat and Sunday our State Federation Shoot at SheShequin abt 2 1/2 hrs from the house - Then Labor day weekend.  Will (or hope to) shoot 2 different clubs then I better rest up for our club shoot the next Sunday.   All this depending on my supply of powder ball and health!

     Oops way off the subject - Sorry Sonny and all 

[Leatherbelly]

Ever try the trigger pull on a Charlie?Sheesh, ya gotta use your saturday night finger and pull real hard! No wonder they lost the F&I war! The latinous fools!hehehe

[Daryl]

DP - the tests I was talking about, were done by testers.  They fired a standard military gun, I think a model 1795 with full charge on a large piece of paper and drew a circle around the holes.  Reducing the charge in 1/2 reduced the circle enclosing all the shots by 1/2, then they went on to suggest the charge be further reduced to 1/3 the service charge for 'normal work'.  The 'board' also suggested reducing the main spring to 1/3rd it's original stength as it was way heavier than needed as it 'shocked' the gun off target.  Contrary to the English method of pointing, the US troopers were taught to aim each shot.
:  Buck and Ball were consumed at a rate of 3 to 1 over single ball ctgs. by the US Military throughout the smoothbore's reign.  The buckshot ctg. held 9 for the light and 15 for the heavy load. We don't know the suze of this buckshot, but assume it to be around .30.
; The muskets of the day, up until about 1820, were of bore size from .690" to .701" and they shot .64 cal balls in paper ctgs. THAT's a lot of windage.  Around 1820, the ball size was increased to .65" and the number of hits in testing increased to 1 turkey in 4 at 100 yards. Wish we could do that sort of testing today without rasing eyebrows.