Lock for Tennessee Rifle

[Bill Raby]

I am starting to build a Tennessee rifle in a week or so. I have a Siler lock that I was planning to use. Looking at old posts here it seems everyone says to use a rounded English lock on this type of rifle. From looking at photos of original rifles, the rounded back locks are certainly more common, but there are a few originals with locks that are pointed on back like the Silers. So I am wondering if the Siler type of lock is historically correct, but just not nearly as common, or is it just totally out of place? Is it possible that it was used on the earlier rifles? I can buy a new lock if I have to. Just would rather avoid doing that.

[rich pierce]

The Siler is a 1770s lock. The fully evolved, slim SMR with a narrow buttstock and severely crescent shaped buttplate is 1810 to 1870. Let’s see some pix of original SMRs with pointy 1770s locks.

[Mike Brooks]

I think I know of only one original Appalachia rifle with a Germanic lock. They are so rare as to be nonexistent. Late period English locks are what was used. Save the siler for a project down the road and jump for a late Ketland.

[Bob Roller]

A lock similar to the L&R small Manton with s slightly rounded tail or used
as is would work or better yet,the Chambers Late Ketland IF you can get one.
I have no idea when I will make any more of these and they are much higher
priced than any production locks.

Bob Roller

[scottmc]

I used a L&R Manton for one of mine.  I rounded the back and filed the fanciness off the back of the cock.  If I could get the picture upload to work, I'd show u what it looks like.  Seems to be frozen at the moment.

[scottmc]

....also, if u are right handed, I'd jump on what Mike said and get the late Ketland, but I'm a southy so I'm limited to l&r or I also like Cochran if u can find them.  I had one for years and never gave me an iisue.  But again, for lefties.

[Hungry Horse]

There are a couple of early SMR’s made in the Carolinas that have Germanic trade locks, but Tennessee made SMR’s with Germanic locks a lot rarer. Most of these guns saw a lot of hard use, and may very well have had their locks replaced around the turn of the twentieth century, with Germanic locks.

  Hungry Horse

[Bill Raby]

Looks like I will be buying a new lock.

[stuart cee dub]

Steve Bookout (Toad Hall Gunshop Iowa )now retired but sometime visitor to this board has a small tutorial on his website on converting a Siler to look more English look .
He's not claiming  it's authentic but it is better than a straight Germanic lock and if that's all you have to work with so be it .

While you're at it tweek the tail too. Bookout style guns are a sub-genre as much as Woodbury guns are.

[scottmc]

This is a L&R Manton slightly modified.

[hanshi]

The late Ketland lock is a really nice lock; I have a rifle with one of them installed.

[bama]

I have seen two original SMR with pointed tailed Lock's. One was a half stock that a S. North pistol lock dated 1823 had been used. It had been converted to percussion but was the original lock used when the rifle was built. The rifle was dated 1853.

My rifle that is attributed to John Bull has a pointed tailed lock which I believe to be original to the rifle. I think that this rifle dates earlier than 1830 and was originally built as a flintlock. See the thread by Paul for pictures of this rifle.

Neather of these locks have the sharp pointed tail of a Siler lock but they are not rounded either. To say that it is incorrect to build a SMR with a pointed tailed lock I feel is not a good statement.  SML covers a wide time frame and geogracphical area. Builders should try to match the lock to the time and area he is trying to represent.

[Elnathan]

There are a couple of early SMR’s made in the Carolinas that have Germanic trade locks, but Tennessee made SMR’s with Germanic locks a lot rarer. Most of these guns saw a lot of hard use, and may very well have had their locks replaced around the turn of the twentieth century, with Germanic locks.

  Hungry Horse

Which ones are those? There are a number with the earlier pointed-tail English flat-faced locks, but I can't recall seeing one with a Germanic lock.

[Dennis Glazener]

The Feather rifle that Reaves Goehring owned, (he made casting of the lock) is supposedly a Virginia Valley rifle. The lock looked very much like a Siler I had one of the plates that Reaves cast and a friend put Siler internals and a Siler pan on it and most people think it is a Siler lock. Is just a little shorter But the original had an English style pan (Reaves was out of pan castings when I bought the plate).

Many early southern rifles, whether mountain rifles or otherwise, most had English style locks but some of them had pointy tail locks similiar to Silers but the pan appeared to be English.

Seems to me that someone told me that the English locks were being imported through Philadelphia by the barrel and they made their way down the great wagon road to the South. Also they were imported into other southern ports the same way.

Dennis

[smart dog]

Hi Bill,
You can make a Siler look a bit more English.  Below is a small Siler turned into a 1770s English lock for a small fowler.  The large Siler has more to work with.

dave

[Elnathan]

The Feather rifle that Reaves Goehring owned, (he made casting of the lock) is supposedly a Virginia Valley rifle. The lock looked very much like a Siler I had one of the plates that Reaves cast and a friend put Siler internals and a Siler pan on it and most people think it is a Siler lock. Is just a little shorter But the original had an English style pan (Reaves was out of pan castings when I bought the plate).

Original looks like a German pan to me...



I was asking specifically about early Carolina mountain rifles, actually, since that is what Hungry Horse said...I do know that some/many early Virginia rifles had Germanic locks. I just haven't seen any early mountain rifles from down here with German locks, and I'm wondering if I missed something.

[Bill Raby]

I had a look at the Siler lock that I have. Rounding off the tail would be easy. Problem is that I need to keep the lock plate covering all the inside parts. The Siler lock plate starts to angle in at the back well before it gets past the internal parts. If I rounded off the area behind the sear and sear spring it is going to give it a goofy looking curve at the back. Not a big deal. I can just order an English lock. I think Late English Lock by L&R should do it.

[Hungry Horse]

 There is a nice Bear Creek school rifle with a toggle wooden  patchbox, and a pointed tail lock with a squared pan. There is an unusual rifle attributed to South Carolina that has a narrow brass side open patchbox, and a pointed tail lock with a Germanic pan. They are both in one of the books on Southern rifles. The odd South Carolina rifle is pictured on the Aspenshade antique gun sight, at the very end of the sold guns section. It is listed as sold, and then subsequently stolen.

  Hungry Horse

[B.Barker]

You could use a siler like some have said but its a bunch of work to get them to look right. If your up for a challenge you can make it look like this.

[Dennis Glazener]

There is an unusual rifle attributed to South Carolina that has a narrow brass side open patchbox, and a pointed tail lock with a Germanic pan. They are both in one of the books on Southern rifles. The odd South Carolina rifle is pictured on the Aspenshade antique gun sight, at the very end of the sold guns section. It is listed as sold, and then subsequently stolen.

  Hungry Horse

The pan looks rounded to me, if Germanic it sure has a lot of wear.


Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

The Feather rifle that Reaves Goehring owned, (he made casting of the lock) is supposedly a Virginia Valley rifle. The lock looked very much like a Siler I had one of the plates that Reaves cast and a friend put Siler internals and a Siler pan on it and most people think it is a Siler lock. Is just a little shorter But the original had an English style pan (Reaves was out of pan castings when I bought the plate).

Original looks like a German pan to me...



I was asking specifically about early Carolina mountain rifles, actually, since that is what Hungry Horse said...I do know that some/many early Virginia rifles had Germanic locks. I just haven't seen any early mountain rifles from down here with German locks, and I'm wondering if I missed something.

Sure does, I never saw the pan, someone told me it was an English style pan.
Dennis

[Mike Brooks]

There is an unusual rifle attributed to South Carolina that has a narrow brass side open patchbox, and a pointed tail lock with a Germanic pan. They are both in one of the books on Southern rifles. The odd South Carolina rifle is pictured on the Aspenshade antique gun sight, at the very end of the sold guns section. It is listed as sold, and then subsequently stolen.

  Hungry Horse

The pan looks rounded to me, if Germanic it sure has a lot of wear.


Dennis

That's an English lock. If that's the kind of point on the end everyone is talking about it is correct for this time period in English locks. Seriously, siler type locks on post 1810 Mt. rifles are so rare as to be non existent. Personally, I'd never use one on a post 1800 Mt rifle.

[Hungry Horse]

Obviously I was wrong about this rifles locks origins. I mistook the light reflecting on the pan, and cover edges, for a square, or hex, pan. You guys blew the picture up much bigger than I was able too.

  Hungry Horse

[Bill Raby]

I managed to scrounge up a John Bailes from L&R today. At least its English. I am assuming that the little tail at the back of the lock dates to a bit too early for a Tennessee rifle. If I just round off the back of the it should be good. I am using a swamped B profile 50 caliber barrel. 44 inches long. The lock is fairly small, but I think it will work just fine.

[Dphariss]

I am starting to build a Tennessee rifle in a week or so. I have a Siler lock that I was planning to use. Looking at old posts here it seems everyone says to use a rounded English lock on this type of rifle. From looking at photos of original rifles, the rounded back locks are certainly more common, but there are a few originals with locks that are pointed on back like the Silers. So I am wondering if the Siler type of lock is historically correct, but just not nearly as common, or is it just totally out of place? Is it possible that it was used on the earlier rifles? I can buy a new lock if I have to. Just would rather avoid doing that.

Just use the L&R "Manton" its a 1780s period lock but its about right for a late FL in America. Since the import locks from England were 20-40 years behind what was current state to the art in England.
The English locks generally have the pan farther forward of the fence than the Germanic locks do. Making it a little easier do deal with vent/breech face location with out moving the lock forward too much.
The L&R also jars the gun less when it fires than some others do. This is more important with pistols. I also have modifed the cock on the last ones I have used to bring the cock closer to the pan. Over the years they have moved the stock on the cock about .100" or so to stop the cock sooner for some unknown reason. Sometimes the original position still shows on the casting.

Dan