Author Topic: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me  (Read 4279 times)

Online rich pierce

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Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« on: August 25, 2018, 06:43:50 PM »
This was posted on Facebook and I got permission to share here.  What do you think?  Seems like a cool rifle for thos3 who like plain rifles. Very early lock but the gun is more longrifle than Germanic.







Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2018, 08:09:20 PM »
I was wondering when it would show up here!  That was fast.  It's pretty neat, I personally find that it reminds me of the more elaborate 'running deer' rifle in some ways, just a vague thing. 

It looks like it had an excessively large box lid which is kind of weird.  Why slap a giant lid on there to cover a tiny little mortise?

Nice early furniture, side plate with the rear screw is interesting and reminds me of the Brit-made rifles intended to copy the American stuff.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2018, 09:09:55 PM »
Lock is marked, but I can't quite read it. Did the owner happen to mention what it is marked as?

Very interesting gun, and similar to a couple in Shumway.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2018, 10:27:18 PM »
Robert Weil immediately told me it looked like a mid century French lock and I agree.  Looks like some kind of re-purposed fusil lock or something like that.  Also I can't tell if the barrel is full octagon or not.

It's funny, the architecture reminds me in so many ways of those Brit copy pieces, it's almost like this is the type of piece they were trying to emulate, or else this guy was trying to emulate those emulations!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Online rich pierce

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2018, 11:02:28 PM »
Ok something clicked, may mean nothing. The flat area, if covered by a brass box, reminds me of John Davidson rifles. Here is one by our founder Mark Elliot.


Andover, Vermont

Online Stoner creek

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2018, 12:16:30 AM »
Here’s one from Mike Gahagan


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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2018, 06:09:40 AM »
Ok something clicked, may mean nothing. The flat area, if covered by a brass box, reminds me of John Davidson rifles. Here is one by our founder Mark Elliot.



I wanted to correct something here.   I didn't make this rifle.   I photographed it and published it on my web site.  It is an original John Davidson that I don't believe has been published anywhere else.   I have done carving based on this rifle.   

Online rich pierce

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2018, 03:13:54 PM »
Thanks, Mark. I was thinking you’d gotten aging down pretty darn good.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2018, 04:15:34 PM »
I can't think of any reason to make such a large box lid, especially considering the extremely small size of the actual box compartment.  It's tough to envision how it may have looked with the actual lid in place but I can't really see it any other way than awkward.  I wonder if it was heavily molded?

Just from a practical perspective, the large amount of wood contact between the mortise and the bottom of the lid would - to my mind - be a potential detriment in foul weather, like a sticking drawer.
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Offline DaveM

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2018, 04:38:53 PM »
That gun looks like it would have had a sliding wood box lid cover?  The way there appears to be a groove in the center leading to the butt plate?

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2018, 09:25:52 PM »
Robert Weil immediately told me it looked like a mid century French lock and I agree.  Looks like some kind of re-purposed fusil lock or something like that.  Also I can't tell if the barrel is full octagon or not.

I was thinking that the lock locked like a French fusil lock and that the inscription is TVLLE, but I was afraid I was just seeing what I expected to see.

I wonder if the tiny little box was intended to serve as a grease hole with a lid. Audubon describes a patchbox being used that way, with patching being greased with tallow contained in the patchbox before being trimmed at the muzzle. Doesn't seem as practical a method with a wooden lid as with a hinged one, though.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline wallace gusler

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2018, 06:14:17 AM »

I would love an opportunity to handle this rifle.  Looks like a pretty early example.  It seems to have a low cheek piece and perhaps, once had a relief finial at the back of the lock.  Just worn highlights of the finial suggest a Rockbridge, VA, type of beaver-tail that is blunt at the back and taller than it is long. Clearly, it had a sliding box with a very low dovetail in the butt piece and a shallow slot for its spring latch, cut through the wood from the butt piece to the small box cavity.  The large door and small box are somewhat at cross purposes functionally, but in the early period, many variations are found in the experimentation with rifle boxes.  In March 2005 Muzzle Blast (pp. 56-7), I illustrated a wonderful early example with a very large door and smaller cavity. While this example is not as exaggerated as the one under discussion here, it has a full half inch or better unused space on each side of the cavity. The finial of the box on this rifle under discussion appears to be brass (?) and nailed on.  The parallel to John Davidson and other makers in Rockbridge Co., VA, who used a spear-head shaped finial, may be valid. The design might well have been used by others in a vague emulation of wooden doors.  Does anyone out there know where this rifle is?  The possible combination of a wooden box with a brass finial seems to be very important. 

PS: I noted someone was making comments about cutting patches at the muzzle in conjunction with grease hole boxes.  I do not believe either are 18th-century practices.  They seem to have evolved in the South in the post-1800 period.   

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2018, 03:42:52 PM »
I wonder if the triangular area forward of the box cavity is actually brass or an unfortunate reflection.  There seems  to be fairly bright reflections above and below the box cavity.

Rich,
Since you've made contact re: permission to post the pictures, perhaps we could get additional shots?  Very interesting piece.  Thanks for posting it.

-Ron
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 04:00:25 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2018, 03:52:24 PM »
I truly think the 'triangular' area is just reflection and is the forward portion of the "flat" for the box lid.  Unfortunately the resolution is not the greatest; I've tried zooming in on it but it pixelates too quickly.  I think we're looking at a gun that just had a somewhat over-sized box lid and the glare is being reflected off the finish or oils in/on the wood. 

In short I think it's all wood we're seeing, but I certainly agree with Wallace that if it was a piece of brass, it would be exceptionally interesting.

Also, I am about 99.9% certain it's a Tulle marked lock, which is REALLY cool.
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Offline Arcturus

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2018, 08:51:39 PM »
I also agree with Eric that it is simply a reflection off the flat spot on the wood.  But the idea that the size and shape of the missing wooden lid may have been emulating those brass boxes is an interesting one. 
Jerry

Offline bgf

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2018, 07:50:08 PM »
It occurred to me that even if the shiny area is just wood, the lid itself might have been metal (cast brass) or combination of wood slide and metal cover.  Aesthetically, a typically thick wooden lid of that size is hard to visualize, and there's no reason that an early metal box would have had the fully evolved hinges and release of later boxes.  Maybe they used the wooden patchbox style slide because that's what was state of the art at the time?  Just a speculation.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2018, 02:56:33 AM »
A beautiful piece gracefully done, especially for the simplicity.  And when I saw the lock, I thought it looked French also.  Needs a bit of loving though.

Wallace, good to see you here.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline wildcatter

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Re: Cool, plain Virginia rifle looks 1780s to me
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2018, 05:17:33 AM »
Interesting rifle, I agree the reflections on the sides of the box are wood, I like others would be interested in knowing if the patchbox final is brass. Is that incised carving behind the cheek rest, not the cracks extending forward from the butt plate but the dark splotches right behind and above the cheek rest. Lastly, what letters are punched into the butt plate? HS....

Thanks,

Matt
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