Author Topic: Gooey Black Powder  (Read 3360 times)

JCurtiss

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Gooey Black Powder
« on: August 31, 2018, 03:35:06 AM »
I shot my 50 caliber York-pattern flintlock today and it failed to fire after about ten (10) rounds. This is only my second time to shoot this gun after building it, so I'm new to the flintlock experience. 

Despite "picking" the vent and firing several pans of powder, the main charge would still not fire, so I had to pull the ball with a tap and cleaning rod.  It appears that the reason it would not fire was due to a crust that had formed around the FFFG powder charge.  I thought this "crust" was odd considering that I swabbed the bore with a clean patch after every shot. Notably during this swabbing process, I noticed that the powder residue seemed excessively oily.  I'm using Graf & Sons FFFG Black Powder. Could this particular brand of powder be problematic with respect to forming excessive oily residue and then ultimately a "crust" that prevents the main charge from igniting?  Or, am I doing something wrong, or possibly not doing something that I should be doing in order to prevent a recurrence of this fail-to-fire?  By the way, I'm using a 0.490" diameter ball patched with a 0.020" thick Ox-Yoke patch with 60 grains of FFFG Graf & Sons black powder.

Any ideas on how I can correct this fail-to-fire problem after ten (10) rounds is greatly appreciated.

Jason   

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2018, 04:19:54 AM »
Jason,

I wonder if you drowned the powder when swabbing the bore?  Black and oily says a lot of moisture.

Offline Semisane

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2018, 04:20:55 AM »
Your profile does not show your location, but I suspect you were shooting in a high humidity situation. Black powder fouling turns to oily soup in high humidity. It's not uncommon that running a cleaning patch down a soupy bore pushes goop to the area of the flash hole.

While it's not "historically correct"  ;) when I have a long flintlock session down here in the S.E. Louisiana summer I keep a spray can of O'Reilly Auto Parts carburetor cleaner in my shooting box. After half a dozen or so shots I stick the little plastic tube on the spray nozzle into the flash hole and give it a quick blast - then run a dry patch down the bore. I also have to wipe the pan and flint dry after each shot. If I don't there's a 50/50 chance I will get a KLATCH when I pull the trigger.

In the fall and winter, with lower humidity, I don't have that problem.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 04:22:22 AM by Semisane »
My wife says I'm totally nuts, but I think I'm Semisane.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2018, 04:32:46 AM »
What kind of patch lube are you using and how much?

Offline bgf

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2018, 04:33:23 AM »
I had fouled touch holes and/or hard to ignite charges  regularly under certain conditions using Graf's 3f (supposedly=schuetzen), even with different priming powders.  I think high heat and humidity were the predominant factors.  The issues went away when I went back to Goex.  I guess the fouling draws more moisture, resulting in a gooey mess.  It was ok in cold, dry weather, I believe, and a little cleaner with softer fouling, but the batch I got was noticeably weaker than the previous sample I'd tried and nowhere close to Goex, so it wasn't worth the hassle.  I shot up what I had and moved on.

JCurtiss

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2018, 05:58:56 PM »
Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I live and shoot in Houston, Texas, so it is a hot and humid environment.  But I've shot percussion pistols and rifles for years here using black powder and black substitutes and never had the gooey mess that I have now.

Regarding the patch lube question: Ox-Yoke pre-lubed with Wonder Lube. 

I'm beginning to think that this Graf & Sons black powder has a greater tendency to absorb moisture than the other stuff I've used. This is my first time to shoot this powder and it was disappointing. The problem is  I have five (5) pounds of this gooey stuff, which is too much to throw away.

Best,

Jason

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2018, 06:14:49 PM »
Were you using anything besides spit to swab between shots?

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2018, 06:29:01 PM »
Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I live and shoot in Houston, Texas, so it is a hot and humid environment.  But I've shot percussion pistols and rifles for years here using black powder and black substitutes and never had the gooey mess that I have now.

Regarding the patch lube question: Ox-Yoke pre-lubed with Wonder Lube. 

I'm beginning to think that this Graf & Sons black powder has a greater tendency to absorb moisture than the other stuff I've used. This is my first time to shoot this powder and it was disappointing. The problem is  I have five (5) pounds of this gooey stuff, which is too much to throw away.

Best,

Jason


Jason,

I suspect Daryl and several others here, myself included, would suggest you go to a .495 ball and 10 ounce denim patching along with a wet patch.  Then do not wipe the bore between shots as there will be no need to do so.  Read through the "Hard to Load" thread just down the list from this thread.  Pay particular attention to Taylor's instructions on preparing a wet patch using a liquid lube and proper prep of the crown.  As for Bore Butter and Wonder Lube, ditch the greasy stuff.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

JCurtiss

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2018, 09:18:27 PM »
Were you using anything besides spit to swab between shots?

No, I use a dry patch between shots.

Jason 

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2018, 01:14:31 AM »
If your using a jag to push a clean patch down between shots make sure it does not push fouling down in front of it. The jag should not be a tight fit in the bore. If it is spin it in your drill press and turn it down some (5/1000 at fi8rst and if it still pushes fouling down spin it again.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2018, 04:38:12 PM »
I've used Graf's powder and liked it. After this, I think i'll go back to Goex.

JCurtiss

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2018, 04:54:49 PM »
Again, thank you for all the comments.

Even my flash pan had an oily residue in it, so I'm thinking that the high humidity here in Houston, Texas was a major contributor to my gooey mess. Thank you for that hypothesis there bgj.

Best,

Jason

Offline Leatherbark

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2018, 02:42:07 PM »
One other thing to consider is how close the touch hole is to the face of the breech plug.  If it is too close ashes from previous firings (10 in your case) is building up on the face of the breech plug.  Use a scraper occasionally and turn the gun upside down and pour them out.

Bob

Steve-In

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2018, 05:32:44 PM »
Up here in Indiana it can get humid.  Between relays I run a patch down and leave it there.  When the line opens I wipe out the pan and pull the ramrod out.  Otherwise I will see moisture almost running out the touchhole.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2018, 08:07:18 PM »
Shooting yesterday my pan would get gooey if I did not wipe it immediately after firing.  94 degrees and 60% humidity.
Andover, Vermont

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2018, 08:43:09 PM »
Probably why the Graf's powder worked for me. Dry as a bone here.

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2018, 02:11:04 AM »
Tracks Mink Tallow is good stuff...  But saliva is the only patch lube I will use in humid weather. And I do not swab between shots... I pour the new powder charge in and then seat the saliva-moistened patch and ball. This wipes the fouling on the way down the barrel and seats it on top of the powder to be blown out when the shot is fired.

If you can figure out how to keep fouling soup out of the pan in humid weather... I'm all ears. Wiping the pan, frizzen, and flint between shots just seems to be par for the course in hot, humid weather.

Mike

JB

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2018, 02:36:29 AM »
Tracks Mink Tallow is good stuff...  But saliva is the only patch lube I will use in humid weather. And I do not swab between shots... I pour the new powder charge in and then seat the saliva-moistened patch and ball. This wipes the fouling on the way down the barrel and seats it on top of the powder to be blown out when the shot is fired.

If you can figure out how to keep fouling soup out of the pan in humid weather... I'm all ears. Wiping the pan, frizzen, and flint between shots just seems to be par for the course in hot, humid weather.

Mike
do you clean the touch hole after you load?  OR before?  Or both.

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2018, 04:27:14 AM »
Honestly I don't pay much mind to the touch hole unless I encounter problems...

Might be sacrilegious of me to say that. But that's just the way I do it.

Mike

Offline Roughneck

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2018, 03:21:58 PM »
I had the exact same thing happen to me over shooting 3 days this weekend. Weird thing it only happened to my 54 caliber using 2f goex. Both my 40 & 32 ran 3f goex & Schuetzen all weekend never having that problem. I switched to 3f in my 54 and never had the issue again but maybe that was just luck. I thought it was the 2f powder drawing more humidity bit maybe I am wrong. Also when I clean my 54 I always have much more fouling when scraping the breech plug than my other 2 rifles as well. 

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2018, 05:11:59 PM »
4F should draw the most moisture. I never use it to hunt with.

Offline G_T

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2018, 10:37:45 PM »
IIRC, Goex has a graphite coating on the powder. That might make a difference for moisture uptake rate.

Gerald

Offline Daryl

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2018, 04:03:26 AM »
Seriously boys. OILY and gooey with wet B.P. fouling are 2 entirely different problems, sounds to me.
There is ZERO oil on Black Powder's composition
 How could the addition of moisture make an oily product?
Daryl

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Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2018, 08:06:20 PM »
Seriously boys. OILY and gooey with wet B.P. fouling are 2 entirely different problems, sounds to me.
There is ZERO oil on Black Powder's composition
 How could the addition of moisture make an oily product?

Daryl, I believe the "oily" description is just a way to describe the goo left over. I know when I encounter it the stuff does have an oily, filmy, feel to it. Of course it's just fouling and moisture from humidity.

I guess it just "looks" oily, so that's how it gets labeled.

Mike




rfd

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Re: Gooey Black Powder
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 02:51:32 AM »
every gun wants what IT wants.  yer job is to figure out the "what" part.  there are many Many MANY things that can be of concern with a muzzleloader and more so with a flint ignition system.  patience and learning are key. 

*IF* the gun is of offshore manufacture, it will most likely have a "double breech" aka a patent breech.  this is an ante-chamber before the main chamber.  there are very special concerns over loading and cleaning these kinda guns.  thankfully, most onshore trad ml's use traditional flat breech plugs.

fouling control between shots may or may not be needed.  however, when getting to know a gun, it makes sense to start off wiping between shots, mainly because of chamber concern.  if a dry patch, or a dry lube patch wipe isn't sufficient, and you go to wet patch wiping, a dry patch or two will be mandatory.  wet or moist or damp chambers are to be avoided at all costs. 

when you run any patched jag down the tube, air will compress, crud will be pushed into the chamber and into the touch hole or bolster or nipple.  you may see smoke pour out from an orifice, lingering from the shot just taken.  that smoke should cease.  if it doesn't, there might still be a moldering ember in the chamber and more jag action is required. 

the bottom line is to get the *chamber* area, where ALL the real action takes place, clean and dry - the barrel itself doesn't much matter.  this includes the ignitions system hardware - touch hole, or bolster/nipple.  if it's a flint ignition gun, picking the vent is good insurance as is wiping down the hammer, and flint, and pan.  failure to spark means knapping a new flint edge. 

for such simple guns, there is much thinking and doing to do, if reliable ignition and good shots is the goal.