Tang length??

[Bigmon]

Just getting started on a little 24ga fowler and am ready to shape and inlet the breech plug and tang.  What are the thoughts on how long the tang should be?  I used to just inlet as it came but am realizing that it seems too long?
Any photos would help.
Thanks

[Ron Scott]

If you post the style that you are desiring to build you will get more accurate advice.

[Mike Brooks]

How big is your lock? A bigger lock takes a longer tang if you are using a machine screw through the stock into the trigger plate. If you are just using a wood screw probably 2" to 2 3/8" will work depending on whether or not you have a square or thumbnail finial. All of this is why it's important to make a full size drawing of the gun you're building.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Go here:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48921.0

and scroll down to where I discuss barrel and tang dimensions for 2 original English fowlers. As Ron asked, the design of gun you have in mind will affect tang length to some extent.

dave

[Bigmon]

Many thanks to all for the information.  I suppose that as I was at one time a draftsman, I should have thought of making a full sized drawing and plan everything.
What I am attempting is a simple American type Fowler/smoothbore made from some nice cherry I cut and aged here on my own little homestead. I traced a Clay Smith English Fowler stock on the wood as a guide to at least begin.  I like that style and hope to come near to repeating.
I have a 24 ga Oct / Rd barrel that measures 1.095 at the breech, 41" long I bought from Ed Rayle a cpl years back.  I have either a Chambers Colonial or the Davis Fowling Gun lock to use, probably the later.  Both locks allow me to have the fence even at the back of the barrel and the center of pan/touch hole location in advance of the breech plug face.  Also there appears to be plenty of room between the barrel and the lock mainspring.
In the past, I had drawn my intentions right on the stock.  Do you actually make full size drawings on paper?
Thanks for the knowledge.

[rich pierce]

I generally make full sized paper drawings.  Once you have your lock located, then sear, then trigger, then guard, you should know where the tang bolt will go.  That should help with deciding tang length. But usually I line up current build with another gun to double check everything. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I always make a full sized paper drawing of the profile of the gun at least from the butt plate to the entry pipe.  Then there are no surprises with lock/vent/breech location, etc.  The geometry and architecture of the butt stock and its hardware is what makes the gun.  So start with solid plans.

[Bigmon]

do you folks use the Golden Means method??

[rich pierce]

do you folks use the Golden Means method??

I use the photocopy method.  And the tracing method.  In order to use the Golden Mean a builder would have to be flexible in how it is applied.  Otherwise how could one produce a short-wristed Marshall rifle and a long-wristed Verner Bucks County rifle?

[Bigmon]

I do not know much of the Golden Means system, but after thinking about this I am starting to understand this lock, trigger, tang bolt, needed tang length.  I think.
The bigger the lock, the farther back the sear, the farther back the trigger and plate.  Which means the longer the tang has to be ??
I would not build a gun with out a tang bolt.  I do not like using a wood screw and so far never have.  Though I have missed a front lock bolt once because I didn't plan well enough.
I may miss another but not because I didn't plan.
Thanks to all, and if anyone has any advice I am eager to listen.
Regards to all.

[Mike Brooks]

Many antique rifles  had a would screw at the tang. I have used a wood screw  a few times where appropriate, but I prefer a bolt.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Advice:  acquire at least one good book that deals with building muzzleloading firearms...Shumway/Buchele "Recreating the ... Longrifle", for example, and where many of us started.

[Mauser06]

As far as the golden mean....

I like how Peter Alexander uses it in his videos.  He essentially used 3:5 dividers to dissect photos in RCA to determine where things are on the original in the pics. 

You can do that to draw your layout to scale prior to cutting and drilling as others have recommended.

I have 3 of Eric's Von's drawings and they are great. I haven't used any of the others like MBS or TOTW as they are probably more generic. 

[Bigmon]

I have to really thank you all.  I made a full scale drawing and have discovered that the Davis lock I was planning to use is too wide to allow me to get a front lock bolt in place.  It really doesn't even look close.
After more careful measuring my barrel is 1" at the breech.  TOW book says that Davis lock is good for 15/16" to 1 1/4".  But when I position an exact cut out of the lock over my dwg the front lobe of the lock plate is even lower than the center of my RR channel.  If I rotate it up into the web area it is way to much at an angle.
If I try and make a photo of my dwg will you folks comment?
Thanks

[rich pierce]

Sounds unusual. Have you left much or most of the side flat on the barrel exposed?  Standard locks work with standard barrel usually. Maybe the lock has to be higher on the side flat.

[Bigmon]

Friends, Here is my attempt at a full scale dwg / mock-up?
I just drew the barrel as well as the web and RR hole location and size full scale. As well as other features. (don't mind the bore)
Traced the exact photos out of my TOW catalog and cut them out.
Maybe they are not exact exact, but they gotta be close enough to see that Davis lock won't work, and maybe not the Chambers?
I placed the top of the open Pan on the center line of the bore.
Any advice is appreciated??

[Mike Brooks]

Here's a Davis lock on a 1" barrel. Move the whole lock up a bit past center on the barrel and tip the front up a bit, also put the front lock bolt through the upper edge of the lock nose.



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[Bigmon]

Thanks there Mr. Brooks.  I value your opinion and direction.
Do you think my web could be too thin? Best I can determine it is about 7/32". I could open it up from inside the barrel channel and scrape out maybe 1/8".  But the entry hole is fixed and would that mess up my entry pipe?
Thanks again to all.

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks there Mr. Brooks.  I value your opinion and direction.
Do you think my web could be too thin? Best I can determine it is about 7/32". I could open it up from inside the barrel channel and scrape out maybe 1/8".  But the entry hole is fixed and would that mess up my entry pipe?
Thanks again to all.

I "usually" go with a 5/32" web. 1/8" is good too. I nearly always graze the bottom of the barrel with the front lock bolt, on purpose. In your 2nd drawing if you raised the nose of the lock up just a bit you'd be in bidness, putting the lock bolt in the upper part of the nose, I realize that's a Chambers but you can do the same with the davis, the dimensions are pert near the same. The lock doesn't have to be dead straight with the barrel, you can tip it where you want with in reason, as well as move it up and down  past the center of the barrel, just don't get too crazy. Look at some picks of old guns.

[Bigmon]

Thanks again for the guidance.  I really do appreciate you all sharing your knowledge.
I'd like to use that Davis on this gun, but I do have a Chambers also, but it is ear marked for my Kibler kit when it comes.  When I move these cutouts around on my Dwg it's clear the Chambers would be a lot easier to make work. I been checking out other locks also, since I am going to have to buy one if I don't use the Davis on this project.
maybe I'll just put this away for a couple months and get some chores done around here, then get a fresh start.
But thanks again, regards to all

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It would be useful for you to finish the drawing so that you see the stock architecture in relationship with all your parts.  You need a bottom line of the stock in the forearm and or course, a butt stock.  Then you'll see how the tang screw coincides with the forward end of the trigger plate, and how if you tip the tail end of the lock down, how the wrist will be affected.  The tail end of your lock plate should sit in at least the middle of the wrist - never higher than centre, and preferably below centre.  Mike's photo is a good representative example.

[Craig Wilcox]

With my Lehigh/Rupp build, and a Dale Johnson-Chambers lock, I am "just" into the RR channel with the main spring.  I did put the RR in, and actually have no contact between the two.  Using a pre-carve from MBS, most things going OK along the way.  Mike Brooks has helped us all a bunch, but if he tells you to "Go Pull Weeds", watch out!

[Bigmon]

I can't tell you all how much I appreciate yer help!
I gotta go pull some weeds now.
Best to all

[54ball]

 The Davis will work.

 Don't complicate things.

 What looks good is good.