Author Topic: Last word on patch lube  (Read 17943 times)

Offline Semisane

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2018, 08:30:35 PM »
Last word  !?!

good luck with that.   ;) 

 ;D I'm with you Wade. Had a good laugh when I saw the topic of this thread. (By the way - for the last six years I've used nothing but Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil as the patch lube on all of my round ball guns.)

« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 08:32:03 PM by Semisane »
My wife says I'm totally nuts, but I think I'm Semisane.

Offline Tim

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2018, 08:48:50 PM »
Last word  !?!

good luck with that.   ;) 

 ;D I'm with you Wade. Had a good laugh when I saw the topic of this thread. (By the way - for the last six years I've used nothing but Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil as the patch lube on all of my round ball guns.)



Does the LW play well with Black Powder in terms of
Not creating tar in the barrel? I may have to try LW
When I get my Kibler SMR.
Tim

Offline Semisane

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2018, 09:05:56 PM »
They get along quite well Timbotide.

I use pre-cut patches, mostly pillow tick but also some pocket drill and linen from a table cloth purchased at a Goodwill Thrift store.

I stack a dozen or two patches together and squirt the stack with LW. Then massage the stack with my fingers. Once the oil is evenly distributed throughout, I wrap the stack in a paper towel and squeeze everything together so the towel takes up any excess oil. The patches will feel almost dry and be quite pleasant to handle.

I use this method in all of my ball shooters from .32 to .58 caliber. Some guns like the patch very dry, some like it a tiny bit moister. I've been shooting frontstuffers for over 50 years and, like most guys here, have experimented with all kinds of patch lube. The LW patches give me accuracy that equals or exceeds (mostly exceeds) any other patch lube I've used. I suspect the consistency of the amount of lube on each patch has a lot to do with that.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 09:07:21 PM by Semisane »
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Offline Tim

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2018, 09:13:29 PM »
I’m glad to know this. Seems like LW would also offer good rust prevention.
Tim

Offline Daryl

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2018, 10:43:12 PM »
Semisane - do you shoot without wiping, or do you have to wipe the bore at any time?
Daryl

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Offline Semisane

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2018, 12:20:54 AM »
I generally wipe between shots Daryl. I know paper punching is not for everyone. But I'm one of those loons who enjoy punching holes in paper and trying to get them as close together as I can. Wiping between shots keeps the bore in pretty much the same condition for each shot. That consistency gives me a better chance of producing a group of holes who are real friendly with each other.
My wife says I'm totally nuts, but I think I'm Semisane.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2018, 03:28:33 AM »
There’s fouling generated with shooting black powder. If you do not clean between shots you push it down with the patched ball. It takes up some volume.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Don Steele

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2018, 12:56:40 PM »
Never considered Liquid Wrench for a patch lube but I also don't argue with actual results. Glad to hear it's not causing any of the issues we hear about regarding the use of petroleum products in combination with blackpowder.
Because I'm a Chemist, and curious...I did a little research on it and found the following information in the MSDS (material Safety data sheet):
70-80% of Liquid Wrench Penetrating oil is "Hydrotreated light petroleum distallates" which are defined by the US EPA Substance Registry Services as:
A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by treating a petroleum fraction with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst. It consists of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C9 through C16 and boiling in the range of approximately 150.degree.C to 290.degree.C (302.degree.F to 554.degree.F).
Additionally, from 5-<10% is 1,6,10-dodecatriene, 7,11-dimethyl-3-methylene-, (6e)-,Hydrogenated
There's also from 10-<20% "Other compounds at less than reportable levels, and CO2 (propellant in the aerosol version)
Fascinating.  :)
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2018, 10:51:01 PM »
Thanks for posting about your wiping between shot routine, Semisane.  I did not expect the Liquid Wrench to keep the fouling soft, but maybe it will work that way as a patch lube - a test needs to be done with it, without wiping.

Seems to me, a fouling softening lube is not necessary for target work where the bore is wiped between shots. Many target shooters use up to .022" thick denim with teflon coating for target work with a ball up to .007" LARGER than the bore.  The Dutch Schultz method (that you can buy from him) using Ballistol & water that is dried, but as well, this needs wiping between shots as it will not keep the fouling soft.

If wiping is necessary, then the Liquid Wrench is not going to work for us, as we choose not to wipe between shots. Thanks for the notes on it and NICE target - just under 1 1/2" it looks. Good group.

There’s fouling generated with shooting black powder. If you do not clean between shots you push it down with the patched ball. It takes up some volume.

Not sure what you mean by "takes up volume", Rich.  56% to 57% of the BP charge burned, is solid waste of course. Some of that stays in the bore as fouling after the shot, the rest is blown clear. Whatever is left in the bore after the shot, is pushed down as the patched ball is pressed down onto the powder charge of the next shot just as you noted. However ALL of that comes back out with that shot.  It does not build or stay in the bore.

The only buildup, is in that area near the breech where the powder charge sits. For those who shoot without wiping, that area never gets wiped during a shooting session, whether it is a trail walk, shooting match, testing at the range, or hunting. We clean after the shooting is over for the day. Generally, water based for target work, oil or an animal grease for hunting.

If however, there is a length of time between the last shot and the next time the gun is loaded, THAT next shot will be slightly harder to push down - crunchy as the powder fouling in the bore has had a chance to dry out. 
There will likely be a slight loss in accuracy of that shot, say on a trail walk, however the loss of accuracy, is generally not noticed on a trail walk due to the close range shots and size of the targets.  If it will or you think it might make a difference, calling a fouling shot and discharging that load then loading afresh, works just fine - every time. 

I've not been to a match which will not allow that if you desire. Fire it off, then reload. I have done this myself on our own trail, hitting the target with the called 'fouling' shot, then loading and missing it with my scoring shot.  ::) IT happens.
 
There is some buildup in the breech area,shot to shot of course (if you shoot without wiping), but we've shot up to 100 and more shots without wiping or cleaning and the fouling buildup in the powder chamber area has caused no problems nor effected accuracy in any way that we can see.  There never is ANY buildup in the bore itself, where the ball rides. 

Due to the buildup in the breech, the rod simply will not go down to the same spot or mark on the rod, as the first few shots so easily do.  THAT buildup does take up space.  Forcing the rod to that mark will require heavy compression of the powder charge, which will change it's burn rate and THAT will adversely effect accuracy. 

On the other hand, loading to the same "pressure" on the powder, each and every shot, will ensure consistent accuracy and a consistent 'condition' inside the bore. This is easy to do with a snug load that cleans the previous shot as you load the next one, just as Ned Roberts wrote in "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" 1934, I think it was published.

Thus, there is no buildup in the area where the patched ball rides in and out, doesn't matter how many shots you make, as long as you use a lube that keeps the fouling soft, shot to shot.  For target work, water based lubes work just fine, and for hunting, rendered animal fats (those without salt) seem to work very well.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2018, 12:14:27 AM »
Never considered Liquid Wrench for a patch lube but I also don't argue with actual results. Glad to hear it's not causing any of the issues we hear about regarding the use of petroleum products in combination with blackpowder.
Because I'm a Chemist, and curious...I did a little research on it and found the following information in the MSDS (material Safety data sheet):
70-80% of Liquid Wrench Penetrating oil is "Hydrotreated light petroleum distallates" which are defined by the US EPA Substance Registry Services as:
A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by treating a petroleum fraction with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst. It consists of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C9 through C16 and boiling in the range of approximately 150.degree.C to 290.degree.C (302.degree.F to 554.degree.F).
Additionally, from 5-<10% is 1,6,10-dodecatriene, 7,11-dimethyl-3-methylene-, (6e)-,Hydrogenated
There's also from 10-<20% "Other compounds at less than reportable levels, and CO2 (propellant in the aerosol version)
Fascinating.  :)

Don,

The thing about petroleum products in the bore of a BP gun goes back to the 1980s.  Common petroleum greases were being sold as lubes in black powder guns.  During powder combustion the sulfur would cause the petroleum oils, in the greases, to form asphaltic coatings on the bore walls back in the section of the bore where gas temperatures are high.  This would include the mineral oil used in some lubes.  The lubes based on petroleum waxes would not form asphalt in the bore.  The grease lube sold by T/C was the same grease they used to lube their metal working machinery.  The Blue and Grey brand lube was nothing more than automotive wheel bearing grease repackaged.

The old Ox-Yoke Wonder lube was a petroleum wax with some mineral oil and an oil soluble dye to make the shooter think it was beeswax based.  The mineral oil portion of that lube would create a very thin film of asphalt in the bore.  Not enough to interfere with loading a projectile.  But if you went into the bore with a common tar removing solvent you would remove the thin film.

The petroleum greases created havoc in ml rifles back in the late 1970s and 1980s.  The asphalt buildup in the breach area was one of the problems that resulted in bulged or burst barrels.  The asphalt would build up and keep the shooter from seating the projectile on the charge. I looked into the lube and sulfur thing.  Sulfur was used in certain petroleum crude oils stocks to make asphalt.  Simply add finely ground elemental sulfur to the crude oil in a reaction vessel and heat for a number of hours and you would get asphalt.  Basically a similar thing was going on in the bp gun bore.

Bill K.   

Offline hanshi

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2018, 01:56:53 AM »
Similar to what Daryl posted, I find it easy to develop a routine that allows shot after shot to be fired without wiping.  Along with this is the advantage of accuracy staying the same regardless of how many shots fired.  The lube and patching material have a major hand in continous shooting without wiping.   My favorite lubes are mink oil for the bush and Hoppes BP Lube for the range.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2018, 08:49:20 PM »
Taylor and I used spit, as well as Mr. Flintlock's lube for the Hawken barrel full length at 36" and shortened to 30" testing.






Daryl

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Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2018, 05:50:25 PM »
I have certainly settled on deer tallow, although I somes cut it because it gets awful hard when it gets cold.

And I've experimented a lot too. 

But I think you are right.  Find what works for you, then don't look back.  That said, you are still going to get a lot of traffic here on lubes because people get new guns, new people start shooting, and everyone has a different demand on their guns. 

My go-to loading sequence is to shoot, run a spitpatch down once, reload.  It seems to be the best way to get good accuracy.  However I dislike having to swab between shots, so after I find a load that works this way, I'll try to tweak it by experimenting with lubes to see if I can get it to perform well without swabbing.  Some guns will shoot well without swabbing, some don't.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2018, 08:33:39 AM »
Interesting supposition, BJ Janaviac.  I've been shooting muzzle loading rifles since 72. I had some fouling problems at times, until about mid to late 1973.
After learning to use thicker patches, I found I never had to wipe the bore while shooting.  Shoot all day, no loss in accuracy - shoot, shoot, shoot.
Up to and the odd time well over 100shots - not needing wiping.
I Have tested wiping between shots, in a number of rifles, after hearing or reading this was necessary to get good consistent accuracy. I have been
unable to prove that 'premise' in any gun I've tested - likely over 12 and maybe as many as 15 different barrels.
I'm sorry to disagree with you - for us - all of us up here, using a .005" smaller ball than the bore, along with a 10oz. or at least .020" (20 thousandths) patch
none of us EVER needs to wipe while shooting the trail, whether it's 20 shots that day, or 75 shots.
The accuracy testing above was to attempt to show a drop in accuracy if we cut the Toenjes barrel. My shooting was not very good as I'd never shot that gun
nor it's sights before. It was good enough, however, to show the barrel lost literally nothing in the shortening process, nor did it matter that we'd shot off likely
30 or 40 shots without wiping, in either length.  I did fire some offhand shots at the 100 (109yds) meter berm, at dark 'spots'  sticks, small rocks or small clumps of shrubs.
They were all easily hit. It is about 115 yards to the mid height of that berm or bank.
Daryl

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Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2018, 07:29:02 PM »
Daryl,

How easy is it to start those loads with a ball 0.005" < bore & a heavy patch? 

Do you use a short starter?

And what lube do you use?

If you found that wiping between shots produced accuracy just as good as the loading process you usually use, then we are not really disagreeing.  My only claim was that, the between-shot wipe is what I found to work with just about any gun I pick up.  Over the course of the last decade I've had to introduce a number of people to muzzleloading so I would just direct them towards the between-shot wipe because it was easiest to explain to a newby and I was confident that the loading method would work. 

Now my method for shooting without wiping involves a rather thick grease cookie between the powder and the ball.  This works fantastic for some guns, but other guns it doesn't work well at all. 

Your method has piqued my interest.  If it is easy to start, I'll consider it.  Do you do anything special to the crown to make starting easier?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2018, 10:49:31 PM »
Note the second set of targets above.  .034" patch, and .595" ball. These loaded almost as easily as the .022" patch and .595" ball,

however did not cut nor burn the patch in any way. Even though the thinner patch did not fill the .028" depth of rifling, the barrel still

showed promise in giving good accuracy.  It was tight enough to not need wiping, nor did the tighter load.

Yes - of course, short starter is used.  The rifle must have a good crown. It must be smooth - no sharp edges as those bunch-up, cut

and bind on the ball.  With a smooth crown, the ball and patch conform smoothly to the depth of the grooves.

I noted that with the combinations I use, tighter grouping did not happen when I wiped between shots.  When I first started

shooting, I had to wipe due to fouling buildup. Not every shot, but too often. I read and re-read Ned's book and finally 2+2 equal'd 4

and I/we did not have to wipe - ever again while testing or shooting for that day. We discovered certain combinations shot cleanly,

that is, the fouling NEVER built up, shot to shot, but the bore remained CONSTANT in it's condition, and accuracy was as good as it gets.

 Previously, with loads that did not shoot cleanly, accuracy was not as good as after we discovered how to load the rifles.

What I call accuracy, is 1/2" at 50 yards and 1 to 1 1/2" at 100yards - in the larger calibres - shot 'dirty'.  No wiping.

That rifle, my .69, would not do that when wiped between shots.

 The best I could do with an 1861 .577 Enfield Musketoon with patched round balls at 100yards, was 3". The sights are REALLY close together when

the rifle has only a 24" bl.

The main reason we developed this method of not having to wipe, is were were simply following Ned Robert's teachings in "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle"

published in 1934.  It spoke of his childhood growing up with a muzzleloading rifle & the schooling he got from his Uncle Alvaro on proper loading techniques.

Those did not involve having to wipe between shots, but if using a proper load combination, you could shoot all day without having to wipe the bore, as "when

you load the next one, you are wiping the previous one. The bore maintains exactly the same condition, shot to shot, thus the accuracy is unchanged.

Using combinations that do not fill the grooves, gives allowance for burning the patches, starting fires in dry areas, and having to wipe the bore when WE would

rather be shooting. I go to the range to shoot, not wipe the bore.

I guess I should do back to back tests now. My normal loading with thick patch, then wiping between shots using a combination that does not

shoot cleanly enough to do that - that will be a very loose load indeed - maybe even try something that can be thumb started.  May have to wait until spring.

I will put a peep sight on the rifle just to make sure of a good sight picture.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:19:06 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2018, 11:13:10 PM »
Thanks Daryl.

I am not following the math though.  .007 grooves making a .594 g-g diameter;  I am deducing this is a .58 double rifle. 

.604 - .594 is .010" not .006". 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Last word on patch lube
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2018, 11:39:14 PM »
Thanks Daryl.

I am not following the math though.  .007 grooves making a .594 g-g diameter;  I am deducing this is a .58 double rifle. 

.604 - .594 is .010" not .006".

.580+.007+.007 = 594" yes
.562" ball + .021 + .021 = 604 - 594 = .010" divided by 2 (1-groove each side) = .005" compression in the bottom of each groove - sorry - I was out 1 thousandths.

Before you posted this, I had edited, or perhaps while I was re-writing the post.  I attempted to find the video I had made on loading and shooting the DR, but photobucket, were it was

stored, will not let me have access to my previous photos/videos unless I pay them a monthly fee.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V