Something a little different from my shop.

[David Rase]

I'd like to add, I really like what you did with the lock, engraving is  right on for an English export lock. Even more, I really like the cock on this, I wish there was an option for a cock like that from Chambers, really "late-ens" it up. Of course a guy could file it out like you did, but it's so much easier to be lazy and wish for things.

SOMEONE on this forum used the double throated cock from the Ketland that I
used to make on the Chambers late Ketland and it looked really GOOD.

Bob Roller

Bob,
Are you thinking of this lock?  I bought several of your double throated cocks from Jerry Devaudreuil when I was building my Gillespie rile.  The throw was perfect for the Chambers late Ketland but I had to weld up and retime the tumbler hole.
David
 

[Mikeh]

David, i have a little .36 mule ear rifle with a 3/4 " barrel that was one of my first rifles and it looks about like that smr of yours and i was doing what i thought was my best, rasp gouges and all and it has become my favorite rifle. It will cloverleaf a hole at 25 yard though. The squirrels run and hide when they see me coming with that. Lol  By the way, you done an excellent job on that rifle. You don't have to worry about banging it on a tree or such or at least i dont. Respectfully, Mikeh

[David Rase]

I am overwhelmed by the outpouring of all your positive feedback for this project.  I wasn't expecting the favorability factor to be so high due to our ability to produce the high end guns that are so often displayed on this forum. 
Thank you for  all your commits.
David

[Iktomi]

Now that there is really some rifle gun 

 I've always been drawn to function over form and a minimalist aesthetic. There is a perfection in this guns roughness. Very well done!

[bama]

This is a little off the topic but it does concern the mention of the lay out lines being left on the stock. I have seen a few original militia guns built by I believe one of the Molls, not signed but the workmanship is unmistakable. These guns were built fast and with various parts gathered for the purpose of supplying the malitia with firepower as quickly and cheaply as possible. These guns are on the crude side with the layout lines still visible  My point is it took a skilled Craftsman to take these parts and make a functional firearm. The Craftsman that built the gun that inspired David was a skilled Craftsman who built a quick and cheap firearm for a purpose. What that purpose was we will never know but we can assume it was for a customer with few funds who needed a gun in a hurry.

Skilled Craftsman you say, David is one of the best builders out there today and it took all of his skills to make this gun. If you have never built a gun from a blank it may be hard to appreciate the parts of the original build that were not done crudely. The barrel inlet, lock and triggers, stock architecture, ram rod groove and hole. All of these opporations were done by a skilled Craftsman. Just because the outside was finished in a hurry does not mean the buider was unskilled. Now we all like to romanticize of rifles being built under an oak tree with a pocket knife but I do not believe this rifle to be one of them.

Good job David on a really great piece.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Dave - there is not much more I can say about this rifle that has not already been said . I think this rifle is the essence of what this forum is about. It has so much character that it OOZES the life style of people from the hills of the Appalachian Mountains it is SO COOL . Great work !!!

[bgf]

Completely awesome.  This is extreme example of what a skilled Craftsman can do with limitations on time, tools, etc.  I wish more people would try it.  I'm constantly disappointed at shows when I see an otherwise faithful reproduction of an original next to it's inspiration.  There's rarely any question about which is which: the contemporary rifle usually  "fixes" every perceived flaw of finish and "improves" architecture based on what has become acceptable in the intervening 2 centuries, often completely losing the charm of the original.  I like bespoke doubles, but not American longrifles built like them.  Of course, I know "customer expectations", but is nice to see rifles built in homage to the originals as well.

[Dennis Glazener]

Comments are welcome as well as discussion.  If you are appalled, that is fine, if you like, that is fine also.  And yes, all those tear outs were on purpose.
David

First off I really like the gun. Now for the discussion bait I don't think I have seen that "fowlerish" trigger guard on a late southern mountain rifle, poor boy or otherwise. I am sure someone can come up with one just haven't seen an original one myself.

The single lock bolt kinda makes this a late flint rifle probably late 1830 or 1840's. Most of the original SMR rifle bores that I have seen during that period were the smaller calibers, 36, 40, 41 and a few 45's. Earlier guns tended to run larger. Of course you could say this old gun has been freshed out so many times its now a .50!

Again I love the rifle looks like it came from one of the "coves" of western NC or Eastern TN. Now you need to fill that grease box with bear grease and beeswax.

I've wanted to beat one up like that and just didn't have the guts!
Dennis

[Bob Roller]

This rifle in many ways reminds me of the Mike Sheetz rifle E.M.Farris
had in his shop 60 or more years ago. The trigger guard I think was a screen
door handle and this one looks like it. This rifle and the superb match rifles
from England do define my interests in muzzle loaders.The rest while nicely
done are also rans to me.
The Sheetz rifle had a Maslin lock (NOT Russ Hamm) and the rod pipes were
soldered to the bottom flat and they went thru cuts in the rod channel so the
rod being in place held the gun together.I wish now I had bought it.

Bob Roller

[tlallijr]

Great rifle, makes me think “rough and ready”.

[little joe]

I call that type of gun a corn crib gun as many of them were built in shops  that might have made a passable corn crib, or possibly not.I do like them a lot.Just the basics.

[mountainman70]

In Whisler's book gunsmiths of West Virginia , maybe the early paperback edition, he writes of a conversation he had with a feller from the hills,about longrifles. Friend mentioned his granpap had one, and offered to show it to Whisker. He described the gun as like what we see here,no pictures, but words suitable. Then he remarked to his friend about it not looking like a Kentucky rifle, to which said friend sorta bristled,"Hit aint no Kentucky,hit be a Mountain rifle ".
I often wondered what that gun must have looked like, I think this is it.In style anyway.
Getting harder to find old relics these days,some I have passed over would be in this class.
As to building similar, a few of my builds are close,and I have thought about restocking them, I think I will leave them as they are,
Best regards to all, Dave F

[Ed Wenger]

David, I’ll start by saying this type of rifle is not my cup of tea, but dang, I really appreciate what you did!  To build a rifle such as you did takes an incredible amount of skill and aptitude with hand tools, to say the least.  My hats off to you, great concept and execution!


          Ed

[blienemann]

Hello Master Rase, what's it been now, about 40 years since you taught me about stocking a rifle?  You were still in Junior High then, and lots of learning since.

Justin's premise was a simple man with pocket knife and couple chisels building a rifle?  Did you shape the stock with knife and scraper here?  Did you inlet the barrel and lock in same manner?  This is fun, but the nice profile and slender forend suggest a skilled stocker, while the finish suggests something else.  Roughly finished rifles usually have clunky architecture.  There had to be some knowledge, skill and tools to lay out the piece, drill and tap for bolts, lugs and pins for barrels and pipes and add sights, vs. several metal bands or baling wire to hold barrel and stock together.  If someone skilled stocked the rifle in the square and then sold it to someone to finish as they please, this makes sense, like some of the schimmels in the Blue Mountains that went out the door in the white, and were finished in all kinds of ways.  Johannes Neff inlet a piece of painted dinner plate in one.

I've seen scribed layout lines on several very nice original guns by Henry, Pannebecker and others.  Over time the incised line actually swells and stands slightly proud of the surrounding wood.  Not sloppy, it's like leaving the background cuts in carving on a fine Dickert rifle - shows the careful use of tools.  Glad you left these.

Do you have any pics of Eric K's Bucks Co smooth rifle, somewhat similar to this project, stocked quickly with tool marks remaining.  Also fun.  Thanks for another fine project to discuss.  Bob

[Justin Urbantas]

I really enjoy this rifle. I got to hold it last month at the Montana Historical Gunmaker's guild annual meeting.  It was a very comfortable and well handling rifle.  It would be a great hunting rifle I think.   I have built a few guns myself, and have owned many fine flintlocks, but my favourite gun, and the one I shoot in all my competitions is a .45 poor boy I have had since 2005.

[Curtis]

Really great rifle Dave! I appreciate your artistic venture and ability.  It has tle appeal of the real deal!  Glad I got to see you at the CLA show, wish I could have seen this rifle there as well.

Curtis

[Nordnecker]

I like it, too. I didn't click on the link in your original post until now. I can see you did a faithful reproduction of the gun posted, not just a conjured up, crude idea of what a backwoods gun might have looked like. 

[Bob Roller]

I'd like to add, I really like what you did with the lock, engraving is  right on for an English export lock. Even more, I really like the cock on this, I wish there was an option for a cock like that from Chambers, really "late-ens" it up. Of course a guy could file it out like you did, but it's so much easier to be lazy and wish for things.

SOMEONE on this forum used the double throated cock from the Ketland that I
used to make on the Chambers late Ketland and it looked really GOOD.

Bob Roller

Bob,
Are you thinking of this lock?  I bought several of your double throated cocks from Jerry Devaudreuil when I was building my Gillespie rile.  The throw was perfect for the Chambers late Ketland but I had to weld up and retime the tumbler hole.
David
 

YES, that is the one.  Jim Chambers told me he doesn't care for the double throated hammers
but that one you posted is outstanding.  That Ketland that I made in years now gone was a
lot different from Jim's and most were used during the "flint Hawken"uprising in
the late 70's and early 80's.  I made my last one 10 years ago for a personal job and
haven't made another since.
Presently my plate is running over with lock work so I am not looking for more at
this time.

Bob Roller

[Dan'l 1946]

   David, I keep coming back to this thread because it brought up an old memory from fifty years ago. I was stationed at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri and one day  a few of us went for a hike in the Ozarks. We met an older man sitting with his back against a tree and across his legs was a rifle that could be the twin to yours, except it was percussion. It was a small bore--somewhere in the mid .30 caliber range--and he said it had been in  his family since the  1840s or 1850s and had been freshed out a time or two. This was the real deal and your rifle perfectly captures the look of it. It's a wonderful rifle. Thanks for the memories!             Dan                   

[Dan'l 1946]

I can see the start of a new trend! Everyone needs a "Beater gun"

  I think that if I was fortunate enough to own this rifle I would treat it with the same care that I give to the fine fowler that Allan Sandy made for me years ago. They are both works of art as well as functional hunting companions--at opposite ends of the spectrum, but equally valid.                                                         Dan   

[Bob Roller]

I can see the start of a new trend! Everyone needs a "Beater gun"

  I think that if I was fortunate enough to own this rifle I would treat it with the same care that I give to the fine fowler that Allan Sandy made for me years ago. They are both works of art as well as functional hunting companions--at opposite ends of the spectrum, but equally valid.                                                         Dan

"Opposite ends of the spectrum but equally valid" Much said with FEW words.

Bob Roller

[Joe S]

High art! Congratulations David. This gun is simple, but not simplistic. There's a lot of folks around here who can build a beautiful gun, but very few who can pull off one this ugly.

[BOB HILL]

David, I feel that there were more guns of this type than we can imagine. If someone needed a gun and could barely afford one, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that a gunsmith would sell him a gun roughed out that he could finish himself. The basics done with proper architecture. The rest left to the buyer. I think you have done an excellent example of what I’ve always thought this would look like if done by a pro back then.
Bob

[mountainman70]

I ,too, really like and appreciate this gun for what it is.and represents
Along this line of thought,back in 76 or 77, my late father in law took a shine to the Numerich 45 longrifle he and I built on his farm. It gave us many hours of comraderie. He didn't have many tools to inlet barrel and ramrod hole. Just basic shop tools.
For Christmas of that year, I bought a plank, a 13/16 barrel, Douglas I think, a CVA perc lock,and the parts for him to build a rifle. Got the Recreating the Am longrifle book. My granpap and I routed the barel chanel and rr grove and hole,and over that winter, he built a serviceable rifle,but man, was it buttugly.
But it DID shoot well,and he enjoyed it. When he passed in summer of 1985, the rifle came back to me.I got Bob Walden to restock the parts in a nice piece of walnut from a local tree.This is the gun I patterened my grandsons rifle from.
I dont know what Bob did with the stock, it may be in his plunder somewhere,Lord only knows.
I now could reshape that stock into something better,but,quite frankly, I would rather have it the way Murph built it.
If I ever found the stock, I would rebuild it like he did .
Thanks for letting me ramble. Best regards, Dave F on the Mountain

[WH1]

Dave
truly beautiful gun simple, clean a true working mans piece, love the concept.  Truly a case of less is more.