Author Topic: Plan n Perdy Riffles  (Read 28052 times)

Offline k gahagan

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2018, 05:21:00 AM »
This piece is an example of an early c. 1700-1720 English Commercial Hunting/Trade Gun. These guns followed the long barreled, large bore fowlers of Europe. Typical English trade components like the three screw lock, plain flat dragon side plate, flat iron nailed on butt plate and simple brass two screw trigger guard. Forward screw passing up from the bottom to secure the tang also. Simple brass nailed escutcheon.


























Offline Huntschool

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2018, 06:15:52 AM »
sqrldog:

Thanks much.......
Bruce A. Hering
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Offline ericxvi

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2018, 02:16:28 PM »
  More of the Plain Southern Rifle:






Copper RR pipes and one piece forged trigger guard.

Offline blienemann

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2018, 05:42:43 AM »
Thanks gentlemen for the extra pics of several nice rifles.  Ken – that is quite an early English piece, stout but with many details that wound up on the NW guns or fusils.  Made strong to last in the field, like later trade rifles or military arms.  Thanks to Mike and Joe and all.  I’ll post one more from Jack Brooks – when he was developing his early English trade guns I wrote an article about the original and his copies for Muzzle Blasts.  We found an entry that one of the Girty brothers brought a busted up trade gun to a frontier smith and had it restocked as a rifle.  So Jack took the English trade gun stock pattern, lock and hardware and combined it with a long, light rifled barrel, for this slim piece that is light and points quickly.  I have another long, big bored rifle based upon this same story.
 










Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2018, 04:38:06 PM »
That looks a dandy hunting rifle, Blineman!  Really 'handleable'. 

I think I like all the guns on this thread!

I still think the eye is drawn quicker to "The Lines" on plain pieces, as there is no "ginger-bread" to distract us.  Mind, I don't like inlays anyway, apart from functional ones.
 
Richard.

Offline B.Barker

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #105 on: October 03, 2018, 05:10:49 AM »
Just looked at this thread today while stuck at McDonalds waiting for my truck to be worked on. Some really nice pieces posted. I don't think I could do a rifle in three days now and if I did it would take me two or three months to recoup. Hurts my shoulders too much. I do think many of the everyday rifles of the time were made very quickly and little to no decoration. I've got one in the works right now and haven't decided if it's getting a single or set triggers.


Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2018, 09:16:18 PM »
question to the crew,

Knowing end grain absorbs stain differently.. on Plain and Perdy guns without a buttplate, what if any extra treatment do you give it when staining?
I've seen some guns, that the end grain looks very dark in contrast.. and others they manage an 'almost' even stain?  I'd assume you'd seal it and sand
it back before staining?

Thinking about working on a Poor Boy style gun with my son this winter?

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Davemuzz

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2018, 09:26:05 PM »
I've got one in the works right now and haven't decided if it's getting a single or set triggers.

I just finished my Leman and I went with a single trigger. (Not a single set trigger) I place the pivot a little less that .250 away from the sear bar. The trigger pull is very nice. Smooth....and I'm going to guess 4.0-4.5lbs.

FWIW

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #108 on: October 03, 2018, 11:11:58 PM »
Metalshaper, l don’t do anything to make the end grain not stain darker and I don’t think someone years ago building a common man’s rifle would have gone to the trouble either. Remember they were building a simple functional gun no extra work.
Bob
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Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #109 on: October 04, 2018, 11:00:14 PM »
Bob,

 Thanks for the reminder! Sometimes it just causes some over thinking :P just was curious though, since I've seen some contemporary guns as you described.. Made for function.  then I've seen others where it appears they worked to even out the staining..  Just wondered what technique they used is all..

 Looking around the web at wood working stuff.. the main idea is to seal it or sand it to limit the uptake of stain in end grains?

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Offline B.Barker

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #110 on: October 05, 2018, 04:11:01 AM »
Nitric acid doesn't seem to get much darker on the end grain. However alcohol and water based stains seem to darken more on end grain in my experience.

galudwig

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #111 on: October 05, 2018, 05:39:19 AM »
  Here's my version of the "Plain Southern Rifle" , # 5 on Roy McKnight's video from the 90's.




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I just saw this post and realized what your rifle represents.  I recently acquired the original #5!

I'd love to see some more pics of your rifle. At some point I want to try and reproduce this rifle myself! Does anyone know where I might find a copy of the video "Southern Rifles Plain and Fancy" by Ray McKnight?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 05:40:11 AM by galudwig »

Offline blienemann

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #112 on: October 05, 2018, 08:09:47 AM »
Thanks Brian, galudwig and all for your posts and pics.  Can we see more of the original rifle that ericxvi followed with his contemporary version?  Or other original 3 day or plan n perdy riffles?  Metalshaper – the unfinished rifle from Dixon’s that I began this post with is odd as Eric suggests – any owner of a rifle would probably apply some sort of finish for protection.  I think Herschel House swabs axle grease on the butts of his rifle, under the buttplate and maybe on poor boys to resist moisture.  You could paint a schimmel with milk paint or other old-time finishes, and the color would be the same on end grain.  Could apply a sealer or finish without stain there to keep lighter.  Experiment and post your results for us when done.

It is rewarding but much work to write and illustrate an article for American Tradition –  writing an article is the equivalent of stocking a rifle.  It costs a great deal to have arms photographed, then the magazine or book designed, printed and mailed.  And you seldom hear feedback after the effort.  Posting a topic online like this is easy, quick, free - and most important is interactive, so we can share, challenge, question and learn from each other.  Thanks for all the participation.  Maybe this approach can be used for other topics, and everyone contribute?

I’ve had several offline questions about the last rifle – a restocked trade gun as a rifle, and that Jack and friends had stocked an earlier version from this story.  A Girty took a busted up trade gun to a frontier gunsmith and had it restocked as a rifle.  If we assume the engraved lock and mounts were reused, this would have been a 3 day project with new barrel and Christian’s Spring guard.  Charcoal blued barrel, and the soft red maple swelled closed with finish, so the bit of carving was cut very wide and bold to finish as seen.  Aquafortis, then linseed oil was puddled on the stock and heated with a torch to bake it in, forming a hard shell or skin on the soft wood and to bring out the curl.  Do this outside, as there will be plenty of smoke.   This rifle will be my last photo post – hope I have not overdone it with examples.  Thanks to all for making this very interesting.  I’ll remain quiet and encourage others to add.  Bob 

















Offline ericxvi

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #113 on: October 05, 2018, 02:58:22 PM »
  Hi galudwig,
Congratulations on your recent acquisition. I think Roy McKnight's video is available in DVD. Mine was VHS and crapped out long ago. There is a Muzzle Blasts article about this rifle in the Aug. 1996 issue.
  More pictures are in a prvious [Oct 01].
  Will you build a copy of that lock, since you have the original?

Eric

Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #114 on: October 05, 2018, 03:19:00 PM »
Contact Ray McKnight for a copy of his CD/DVR. I think I have his telephone number and will email it if I can find it.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #115 on: October 05, 2018, 08:35:02 PM »
Here on Steve Bookouts website is ordering information for Ray McKnight's DVD.
Dennis
http://toadhallrifleshop.com/southern-rifles-dvd/


"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

galudwig

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2018, 06:37:27 AM »
Here on Steve Bookouts website is ordering information for Ray McKnight's DVD.
Dennis
http://toadhallrifleshop.com/southern-rifles-dvd/



Thanks Dennis!

galudwig

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2018, 06:53:11 AM »
  Hi galudwig,
Congratulations on your recent acquisition. I think Roy McKnight's video is available in DVD. Mine was VHS and crapped out long ago. There is a Muzzle Blasts article about this rifle in the Aug. 1996 issue.
  More pictures are in a prvious [Oct 01].
  Will you build a copy of that lock, since you have the original?

Eric

I looked back through my pile of old Muzzle Blasts and I don't have the August, 96 issue. Back then I would save the articles that interested me and that apparently was not one of them. I may give the NMLRA a call and see if they have back issues still available.  As for the lock, I'm not sure how to go about that one. I wish somebody made a suitable lock with a double-throated cock. Those seem common on SMR's. I know L&R makes one, but it isn't even close to the original. I'm looking forward to forging out a trigger guard though!

galudwig

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2018, 07:09:14 AM »
When I get a chance, I'll post a few pics of that "Ray McKnight rifle #5." Until then, I thought I'd post a few pics of a "plain n perdy" Southern rifle made by Jack Rouse of Walton, KY.











Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2018, 02:21:49 PM »
Check with David Rase he had a couple of really nice double throated Vicks. He used one of them on a Gillespie that he made awhile back. He may have access to more.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

galudwig

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2018, 02:28:32 PM »
Check with David Rase he had a couple of really nice double throated Vicks. He used one of them on a Gillespie that he made awhile back. He may have access to more.
Dennis

Thanks again for the tip Dennis. I'll do that!

Offline blienemann

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2018, 07:50:28 PM »
Sweet looking rifle with many interesting details.  We don't see many contemporary half stocks.  Another poster asked recently if it was HC or appropriate to use fancy wood on a plain rifle.  This is a good reply - fine lines and let the wood show.  Thanks.

Offline sqrldog

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2018, 08:29:55 PM »
This is a rifle I made in 1982. It is plain not sure about the purdy part. It is a half stock Tn .40 that I used to shoot in competition. Been a lot of miles and had thousands of rounds through it. The aging is all natural from sweat and shooting . Handforged buttplare (my first). North Star triggers (are they made anymore). Tim Cosby.


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Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #123 on: October 07, 2018, 01:29:30 AM »
A few things about the Jack Rouse rifle... An old friend who taught me many of the basics and who is no longer with us.

I know of a couple half stocks that he made - they are basically his standard rifle from the entry pipe back except for the barrel wedge.  At least one was made on request and another the result of a broken fore stock.

His locks were a hybrid of Dixie Ketland plate, frizzen and frizzen spring with the balance Siler parts.  His butt plate was made from two pieces of electrical conduit bent, sawn and brazed together.  Trigger guards were two pieces cold forged and brazed.

He started building these before there was much interest in being HC.  He developed his own style and stuck with it.  His rifles set numereous off-hand records at Friendship in the hands of several different shooters including himself.  I know at least one of those records still stands, because it's a 50-5x by Lois Spenlau.

Good memories,
Thanks for posting it.

Jeff
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Thomas Sowell

Offline Huntschool

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Re: Plan n Perdy Riffles
« Reply #124 on: October 07, 2018, 02:19:38 AM »
sqrldog:

That is a sweet rifle.  I really like the lines.

galudwig:

I really like the fore end work on the Rouse rifle.

Half stocks are neat guns..... course I like Hawkin guns also.....
Bruce A. Hering
Program Coordinator/Lead Instructor (retired)
Shotgun Team Coach
Southeastern Illinois College
AMM 761
CLA