aniline dye concentrate

[Davemuzz]

I want to get my final finish of my Leman build to have a red "violin type" finish. So, I read a blog by Jack Brooks who stated that by adding aniline dye concentrate to the finish oil, the resulting violin red can be obtained.

I was looking to purchase a small quantity and when I read in the description  "Not as permanent as water soluble aniline dyes but very versatile..."

So, I believe my question is two fold:

1--Has anyone had experience using this type of product, and if so....how much\little of it did you mix? (It appears to me that only a small amount of the powder is needed)

2--Does this oil soluble product not last?  And.....I dunno what the definition of "not last" actually is. Anyone know?

Thanks much

Dave

Edit: Brooks stated he used a polyurethane mixed with the aniline dye to achieve his violin red finish. However, he didn't state if the polyurethane was water base, or oil base. I'm guessing water only because he commented on seeing the rifle he built about 10 years later and it still retained it's color.

[dogcatcher]

When I was doing some research about the red looking finish I came across this site. http://www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com/red-violin-varnish.html

I have not tried it, so you are on your own.  I also saw some info about using Feibing's leather dye on the wood and then and then finishing.  Most of the info I found was that Feibings is an aniline based dye.  I have added red Feibings to brown and got a nice red tint, but it was when I was playing trying to duplicate some furniture parts.  I never got a match so it was trashed. 

[Acer Saccharum]

I used "dragon's blood*" mixed with regular shellac, and did a French Polish, building the finish coat after coat. It needs a varnish on top. I'm not vouching for this method as 'the way', but it is a way to get the red you need.

Some reds were gained by grinding Pernambuco** wood

*a red resin from a tree native to Madagascar, likely highly sought by Dutch and English traders. this is VERY light fast, dissolves in alcohol.
** a dye from this South American species. Portuguese traded here long before any Lehighs were ever built

[Jeff Durnell]

I've used aniline dyes on bows many times... water, alcohol, and oil soluble, and all sorts of colors... reds, browns, blue, black, yellow, orange, etc, and I often mix at least two of them to get the look I want.

I won't use water based dyes any more because it raises the grain of the wood. It can be dealt with somewhat, it just seems unnecessary to me. You can reduce this effect by first repeatedly wetting the wood with plain water and sanding it, but I'd rather just use alcohol or oil based dyes.

Oil based anilines may be harder to dissolve in, or may not dissolve properly in some 'oils'. Which oil or petroleum based solvent that's best used with it depends on the look you're trying to achieve, the finishing process used, and it takes time and testing to get it right. Will the dye be IN the finish, or in a solvent, with the finish applied over the dyed wood? Lots of options.

Multiple base colors can be combined to get the exact color you want, and you can also fade/blend from one color into the next right on the wood. I've found them all to be colorfast enough, and can only recall one bow that faded noticeably, though it still looks good. I made it so long ago that I can't remember which type of dye I used on it.

[J Henry]

  I use alcohol to raise the grain,the wood dries out quicker and you can go back to finishing,Careful EXTREME FIRE DANGER,AND YOU HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME SEEING THE FLAMES. OOPS cap lock got me.

[Shovelbuck]

I use Fiebings medium brown leather die for a reddish color, then finish with Minwax Antique Oil Finish. Simple and can be repeated time after time.

[Davemuzz]

I use Fiebings medium brown leather die for a reddish color, then finish with Minwax Antique Oil Finish. Simple and can be repeated time after time.

It's interesting that you use a color labeled "Medium Brown" yet you get this reddish color to it. I assume the Minwax finish is simply clear?

[Shovelbuck]

Yes, the Minwax is pretty much clear. Here's a pic before the Minwax.

[Davemuzz]

And you (just to confirm in my tiny bits of grey matter that still work) use a medium brown dye and yet.....you get this reddish color (which is exactly what I'm after) on the stock?

You see why I ask?  I mean when (usually) brown is applied......brown is what you get.   

[Tim]

I use Fiebings medium brown leather die for a reddish color, then finish with Minwax Antique Oil Finish. Simple and can be repeated time after time.

It's interesting that you use a color labeled "Medium Brown" yet you get this reddish color to it. I assume the Minwax finish is simply clear?

Man that rifle looks nice. That color is stunning.
Do you use the Dye per direction on the container
Or is there a trick to using it on wood.
I’m looking at different finishes and trying to decide
On which one to go with before my rifle kit arrives.

[Davemuzz]

I agree with Timbotide. I really like the color.

Now, I took a scrap piece of my current build and applied Aquafortis, Regeant, then a heat gun. Then I applied two coats of True Oil just to see how it would look. It's nice......but I want a reddish hue like Shovlebuck's rifle.

[Shovelbuck]

I just swab it on and as soon as it's dry, get after it hard with 000 steel wool. The entire stock is pretty black before steel wooling. Practice on scraps first!

[dogcatcher]

There are some tutorials about using Feibings to dye wood on the internet.  The smoking pipes that are made of briar.  The also "set" the dye by flaming it after the dye is applied.  Using alcohol based Feibings, they mop it on and light it up, the alcohol burns off really fast, no charring of the wood.  One example to enhance the grain patter is to dye the briar black, then sand it back and then dye it a brown.  In my other woodworking I have experimented using the same techniques as the pipe makers.   On a flute I made from curly maple, the curl really popped with a dark brown dye, then another sanding to remove some of the dye, and a final dye of light brown.  I did not have the guts to try the black, but wished I had. 

[Davemuzz]

And you (just to confirm in my tiny bits of grey matter that still work) use a medium brown dye and yet.....you get this reddish color (which is exactly what I'm after) on the stock?

You see why I ask?  I mean when (usually) brown is applied......brown is what you get.   

Just trying to confirm....if I use Medium Brown on maple......it comes out red?  Yes?  No?

[Shovelbuck]

Yes, medium brown, that's what I use. It always comes out the same............................................
 

[Davemuzz]

Thank you Shovelbuck!!  I was just finding it tough to apply brown and get red. But......I'm "gettin" some of that stuff and applying it......scrap piece first.....and I'll post the result!!

Again.....thanks for your patience and post!!

Nice smoke poles BTW!!!

[bgf]

One thing I've done in past is add minwax tinted polyurethane (labelled PolyShades) to my oil varnish finish mix.  I did this after reading Jack Brooks' blog on the violin red finish, but I don't know if there is a really red version.  I use a darker tinted finish to add depth and a hint of age.  The Bombay Mohagony is really useful in moderation...

The real violin red finish was a tinted varnish like a candied apple , which is why JB went the way he did.  I would guess it is oil-based.  Fading shouldn't be a huge problem unless gun is exposed to sunlight constantly for years.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Fiebing's leather dye is UV sensitive.  It will fade drastically and you will be sorely disappointed.  Of course a rifle is subjected to sunlight and hand wear year after year.  What other treatment is there?

[Hungry Horse]

Taylor is a hundred percent right about Fiebings leather dye fading if subjected to a little too much sun. Lincoln’s dyes are not so UV sensitive. Lincoln’s medium brown also has a little red cast to it, but is a little more orange than the Fiebings medium brown.

 Hungry Horse

[Davemuzz]

 Aniline dyes are also subject to fading by sunlight. I don't know what can be applied, that will provide you with a reddish tone that will not ultimately fade.

[bgf]

Fiebing's leather dye is UV sensitive.  It will fade drastically and you will be sorely disappointed.  Of course a rifle is subjected to sunlight and hand wear year after year.  What other treatment is there?

Not sure if you were directing this at me, but I meant the tinted polyurethane, not Fieblings, when I said fading wouldn't probably be a big problem, at least in my experience with rifles used regularly, but not stored in direct sunlight.

[Davemuzz]

I dunno how serious this fading issue is with leather dyes. I'm sitting on my leather recliner that has been exposed to direct sunlight for 8 years now. It's still just as oxblood today as it was 8 years ago.

[dogcatcher]

I have heard the same about leather dye fading over time.  But never on the pipemakers forum, it is their go to dye method, and their finish is a fine sanding, then buffing and final wax coat that is buffed.  I have used the Feibings on game calls and my finish is homemade oil finish that contains spar varnish with UV inhibitors and linseed oil. 

[Herb]

I used Fiebings dark brown oil leather dye for many rifles for 15 years or more and never saw any fading.

[Shovelbuck]

The oldest gun I have that I've used Fiebings on is my plain maple fowler, built early in 2009. If anything, it's gotten a little darker.