Pyrodex and Real Powder Info

[Daryl]

Hey Bill,  I think they put the chlorides back into 777 powder.  I just checked the SDS for Pyrodex and 777 and they both have potasium percholrate.

itdan - we were told Hodgdon used the same msds formulae on paper as it was very expensive or difficult, time wise, to get them changed for the new powder.
Is this still true, I don't know. 

[Mad Monk]

Daryl,

I at first thought they had some perchloate in the 777 when I looked at some of their papers on it.  So I broke it down in water and recrystalized all that dissolved.  No potassium perchlorate crystals.  Then the proof.  Out on my roofed over deck I flashed some of it on steel plates and brass plates and watched how the powder residue effected or attacked both.  On the steel plates there was thin surface rusting but not one pit.  On the brass plates there was discoloration and copper leaching but no pits.  So the two told me no perchlorate.  Then I sat down and mulled over all that I had looked at.  Then the dawning light.  The patent work was written up as if this 777 was simply a modification of Pyrodex.  As such they would not have to go through a lengthy and expensive trial as a new explosive composition.  So the comparison to the Pyrodex formulation was a money saving thing even though it was only remotely related to Pyriodex.  The sodium benzoate was replaced with sodium dinitro benzoate.  Highly reactive with charcoal so they did not need a perchlorate to speed up the burn rate.  In the Pyrodex they needed the big slug of perchlorate because the reaction rates of the sodium benzoate would otherwise be too slow for a propellant powder.
Hodgdon has, or had, an employee who used to front for them on the various bp message boards.  I sometimes used him as a target for my caustic sense of humor.  He had once posted that the 777 name was the result of having run 777 batches in the modification of the Pyrodex formula.  Once I was able to stop laughing I pointed out that at OxyChem I was in a  job where I developed new PVC resins for different customers and if I took 777 attempts at modifying an existing resin I would have been out the door after 25 no go batches.
In any event.  The perchlorate was a no no in the 777 originally designed for the in-line actions shooting pistol bullets in sabots.  The perchlorate left minute crystals on the bore walls.  When you shoved a plastic sabot down the bore the sabots did not just push the crystals down.  The crystals would embed into the plastic which acted to increase it's diameter.  After about 2 or 3 rounds with Pyrodex in an in-line you could not get the next saboted bullet down on the charge.  You would then have to debreach and drive the thing back out the muzzle.  We used to have a guy here calling himself Hilljack.  I had him here and down on the range one evening when a guy and his wife showed up with two new inlines.  As he set up he bitched about the dirty unreliable bp flintlocks we were shooting.  He was using Pyrodex P pellets.  Then he could not get the third round down the bore.  So I loaned him cleaning supplies and a real ramrod to drive it back out the muzzle.  And all the while he is lecturing us on the evils of dirty unreliable ml rifles used black powder.  Neither Hilljack or I laughed at him.  But once back home and out on the deck with a few cold beers we could hardly contain ourselves.

Bill K.

[Mad Monk]

Daryl,

Forgot another funny gem in my last post.
If you look at the patent for Pyrodex you see another chemical not found in the 777.  That being dicyanamide (spelling?).  This dicyanamide is an corrosion preventer for the powder before powder combustion.  It keeps the charge from attacking and pit corroding the bore where the powder grains come in contact with the bore.  Now during powder combustion that is broken down and it gives off pure cyanide or potassium cyanide.
I learned this the hard way when I flashed Pyrodex on a bunch of steel plates in my poorly ventilated basement.  After a half dozen plates I felt like I was going to pass out.  I knew from my experience at work that I had inhaled cyanide gas.  At work I had been hospitalized several times after inhaling acrylonitrile fumes.  You breath in the acrylonitrile and it breaks down to cyanide in your blood stream.  DSo I dug out the Pyrodex patent and Lo und Behold there was the dicyanamide.  Which explained why precombustion charges did not corrode the bore but post combustion reside did.
Now without a perchlorate in the 777 they could do away with the dicyanamide.
Now on the Internet message boards we had the Internet front man from Hodgdon monitoring any posts that might reflect badly on them or their product.  One poster commented about toxic fumes given off by the burning of Pyrodex.  Well.  The Internet monitor really ripped into the guy.  In part telling him that organonitriles do not give off toxic fumes.  That proved to be the opening I was looking for.  You see at work, in the PVC Pilot Plant we used this dicyanamide to passivate metal in glass lined reaction vessels with pieces of glass missing from the inside surfaces of these reaction vessels.  This would help stop unwanted polymerized PVC from sticking to the walls of the reaction vessel.  So I routinely heaved around 40 pound bags of this chemical.  And on all edges/sides of the bags were big red warning labels to avoid heat, fire or flame as it evolves toxic fumes of cyanide when heated to it's decomposition temperature.  So I posted that the man should get up from his desk and head out to the raw materials storage area and read the labels on the bags of this chemical.  Boy did that end that thread in a hurry.
I laugh.  These people that supply we ml shooters think we are all a bunch of dumb clods.  Otherwise we would be shooting smokeless powders.

Bill K.

[Martin S.]

Very interesting thread.

I have an old pound of pyrodex, maybe a few years old that I bought before I found a new source of the real stuff.

I can't remember if I ever used it or not.  I hope, for the sake of my guns, I did not.

What would be the best way to safely dispose of it, since, after reading this thread, it is the last thing I want to use.

[smylee grouch]

Give that Pyrodex to a inline shooter. 

[Mad Monk]

Give that Pyrodex to a inline shooter. 

Or !
Here in the city we sometimes have problems of colonies of mice living under cement pads or short stairs in our back yards.  A few ounces of Prodex in a sandwich back and 6 inches of cannon fuse into the bag.  Light the fuse, stuff the bag in the hole and sit a brick over the hole.  The cyanide will take care of the entire mouse population in the in-ground colony.

Bill K.

[Davemuzz]

Give that Pyrodex to a inline shooter. 

Or !
Here in the city we sometimes have problems of colonies of mice living under cement pads or short stairs in our back yards.  A few ounces of Prodex in a sandwich back and 6 inches of cannon fuse into the bag.  Light the fuse, stuff the bag in the hole and sit a brick over the hole.  The cyanide will take care of the entire mouse population in the in-ground colony.

Bill K.

Wow!! The stuff you learn here!!!

[Mad Monk]

I have been digging through draws and brain cells all afternoon.  Here goes.

The Alliant Black MZ is an ascorbic acid based powder.  The oxidizer system is a mixture of potassium nitrate and potassium perchlorate.  A little carbon black to color it black.  This would replace the one previous ascorbic acid powder made with a big slug of perchlorate.  I seem to recall it being called Black Mag.  That operation was being run out a garage someplce when they had the perchlorate blow up and destroy the building with two deaths.

The stuff that was a modified nitrocellulose powder was sold as Blackhorn 209.  I suspect that the 209 designation meant only 209 shotshell primers would light it off.

These ascorbic acid based powders have come and gone since the first one in the mid-1980s called Golden Powder.  The inventor took on investors.  This gave a number of people to exploit the patent on the "invention".  After lengthy expensive litigation several people walked away with the ability to exploit the basic patent.  And each one had a different idea on how to get it to work best as a firearm propellant powder. 

Bill K.

[Davemuzz]

The stuff that was a modified nitrocellulose powder was sold as Blackhorn 209.  I suspect that the 209 designation meant only 209 shotshell primers would light it off.

Ok....are you saying the Blackhorn 209 is similar to Pyrodex?  I only ask as I have used Blackhorn 209 in my in-line ML with no ill effects....at least, none that I can find.

[mountainman70]

Bill K --- our club has recently allowed inlines in the unlimited class. I have noticed when they go off, in addition to hurting my already damaged ears, with earplugs and muffs,btw, the fumes almost make my lungs lock up, and I smell the odor that acc glue puts off when it gets too warm,I already have copd courteousy of Uncle Sam and asbestos,and I guess I will have to clear leave firing line when these  guys are shooting.
 Big question is, how much risk are the shooters putting on themselves,and the rest of us?
Thanks for your knowledge and frankness. Best regards, Dave f

[galudwig]

This is a really good thread. I've never had any inclination to try Pyrodex or any of the other BP substitutes and this thread has helped me understand why I wouldn't want to anyway. I especially appreciate the information and insight given by Mad Monk. He is informative and easy to follow. It's also refreshing to see somebody who knows what they are talking about not trying to use facts to beat the rest of us into submission.

[Mad Monk]

Bill K --- our club has recently allowed inlines in the unlimited class. I have noticed when they go off, in addition to hurting my already damaged ears, with earplugs and muffs,btw, the fumes almost make my lungs lock up, and I smell the odor that acc glue puts off when it gets too warm,I already have copd courteousy of Uncle Sam and asbestos,and I guess I will have to clear leave firing line when these  guys are shooting.
 Big question is, how much risk are the shooters putting on themselves,and the rest of us?
Thanks for your knowledge and frankness. Best regards, Dave f

Dave,

No.  The Buckhorn 209 is way different than Pyrodex or 777.
With the Pyrodex you want to shoot on an open firing line.  Avoid roofed over firing lines if the roofs are very low. BP fumes are not that bad.  But what looks like smoke is really potassium carbonate and potassium sulfate in very fine particle sizes.  Carried out in the combustion gases.  Those being mainly CO and CO2.  On very humid days the smoke is gone quick because the micro particles of carbonate and sulfate dissolve into the minute droplets of water that make up the "humidity" in the air.  On dry days the smoke tends to linger.

With the asbestos and Uncle Sam.  I worked in a big tire plant at first. They used a lot of talc.  The industrial grade talc was about 15% asbestos dust.  Then there was the benzene and two other chemicals.  I am now looking at leukemia.  But at 76 I am not getting too excited.

Bill K.

[Daryl]

Thanks Bill - you are indeed, a National Treasure of knowledge on this stuff.

We are in debt to you and your willingness to help us poor sods.

I was hoping my post at the top of this page, would elicit a response from you to further educate us.

[Dennis Glazener]

Bill,
I want to thank you for sharing your knowledge regarding Black Powder substitutes. Its something we need to know, not just that some of it produces pitting. I don't know about others but I won't be using any of it in the future (not that I have used much but a friend gave me a new un-opened can and I have tried it in a percussion rifle, NO MORE).
Dennis

[Hessian]

I just found this thread, and sometimes I can be a bit "slow," but is it safe to say that the by products of combustion of pyrodex include small amounts of cyanide gas?

If this is the case, why in the world would one want to use this stuff; particularly in a closed area such as an indoor range!

Thanks Mad Monk! I learn something new every time I log onto this forum!

Hessian

[WadePatton]

Give that Pyrodex to a inline shooter. 

Or !
Here in the city we sometimes have problems of colonies of mice living under cement pads or short stairs in our back yards.  A few ounces of Prodex in a sandwich back and 6 inches of cannon fuse into the bag.  Light the fuse, stuff the bag in the hole and sit a brick over the hole.  The cyanide will take care of the entire mouse population in the in-ground colony.

Bill K.

Hmmm, I have a mole situation I'm dreading doing the slow drudgery of trapping out.  If I only had some of that cyanide producing stuff.   I poured out my last container onto a rock and burned it.   But then I like buying things and using them completely contrary to any noted use on the label!  Science yo!   

Would never ignite it (the P-word) around any steel I care about again. I paid a price and Bill here helped me understand how/why many years later. Thanks for that.  Now, lookout moles!

[Bob Roller]

Thanks Bill - you are indeed, a National Treasure of knowledge on this stuff.

We are in debt to you and your willingness to help us poor sods.

I was hoping my post at the top of this page, would elicit a response from you to further educate us.

Bill K,
Daryl is SO right about the help you post and in easy to understand form.My own
knowledge of chemistry is almost zero but I do remember being on another forum
and I think it was YOU that posted about the joys and delights of P dex and cyanide
and how to commit bloodless suicide with it.Artificial powder for artificial muzzle loaders.

Bob Roller

[Mad Monk]

Bob,

While I shot it a few times in my testing comparing it to black powder the Pyrodex did serve a useful purpose in areas where black powder was almost impossible to buy.  I know some shooters who started with it and then later changed over to bp once they really got hooked with bp shooting.  Remember when we only hand one brand of BP which was difficult to find in some areas.  Now we have a much larger selections of bp brands and performances.  And now we can buy partial rather than full cases that require a bank job to pay for.

Bill K.

[bgf]

Monk,
That's what a lot of people miss.  When I started on my own, the random guy at the gun store told me Pyrodex was what EVERYONE uses, so I bought some...  I now realize that situation was because the stores didn't want to comply with storage regulations, but as long as I was pretty much on my own, I shot Pyrodex and lots of it.  Along with the Wonder lube (also a popular item) and some very unsuitable patching choice, because "it really didn't matter" ...  Eventually I grew skeptical of the Wonder lube and patching, and changed to more suitable choices, but the Pyrodex stayed until I found real information on the interwebs.  I think the combination of Wonder lube seasoning and Pyrodex nearly ruined a barrel for me, but I knew how to lap one and saved it!  I did continue to use 777 for some time (with a hot primer) off and on more or less until I switched to flintlock.  The Pyrodex actually shoots pretty well, even if it is evil!  777 is serviceable in caplocks and is a nice option to have.


Anyway, I'm probably a little more sympathetic than most to the situation where someone can't get or doesn't know how to get BP, and I like your knowledgeable, fact based approach a lot better than the Inquisition  that is often let loose on people who don't use the holy black .

[Maven]

"While I shot it a few times in my testing comparing it to black powder the Pyrodex did serve a useful purpose in areas where black powder was almost impossible to buy."  ...MM

That's exactly why I started using it in the first place (not much powder of any kind available locally) in spite of the difficulty of removing its residue from my bbl.s   Oddly enough, Pyro RS produced accurate results for me, especially so in my fast twist rifle with home cast Maxi-Ball bullets (T/C mould).

[Mad Monk]

"While I shot it a few times in my testing comparing it to black powder the Pyrodex did serve a useful purpose in areas where black powder was almost impossible to buy."  ...MM

That's exactly why I started using it in the first place (not much powder of any kind available locally) in spite of the difficulty of removing its residue from my bbl.s   Oddly enough, Pyro RS produced accurate results for me, especially so in my fast twist rifle with home cast Maxi-Ball bullets (T/C mould).

Regarding Pyro RS.  Hodgdon had found that every now and then they would produce a lot of Pyro that gave more uniform results (ballistics).  They had no idea why.  Just that some lots were better than others in shot to shot uniformity.  So they would set those lots aside and sell them at a slightly higher price.

The thing about any of the Pyro variations was that it was really sensitive to moisture.  It was produced to give a moisture content of about 1%.  They had found that this moisture content was critical to the performance of the powder in the gun.  But as you used from a container and left in fresh air it would pull moisture from that air.  This would then set up a chemical reaction in the powder.  A reaction between the potassium perchlorate and the sulfur.  When you read on old primer compounds you see warnings not to mix these two chemicals.  That with traces of moisture it will start a self-accelerating decomposition reaction.  The first thing you notice is that ignition becomes erratic.  Then muzzle velocities become erratic.  Eventually you have a powder that simply cannot be ignited in the normal manner.  When it first came out they told the shooters that once they opened the container use it quickly.  That once opened the shooter could see changes in how it behaved.  The old writings on primer compositions were adamant on not mixing those two chemicals.  The chlorates and perchlorates were commonly used in primer compounds once smokeless powder were introduced.  These were corrosive compounds simply because of a fraction of a grain of chlorate or perchlorate in the primer composition.  But then we more recently see a number of BP subs out using far greater amounts of potassium perchlorate with the manufacturers insisting they are not corrosive.  Utter and total BS.

Bill Knight

[Daryl]

Further to that, some 17% by weight per charge is now perclorate, seems to me, whereas as noted

 by Bill, just a fraction of a grain weight - back in the day, made corrosive primers that rotted barrels.

So - your 70gr. Pyrodex load contains almost 12 grains of perchlorate.

[OldMtnMan]

I took a vacation from forums to calm down. I come back here and i'm surprised to see this thread still going. Some good stuff in it now.

I think everybody should be convinced Pyrodex is not an option for anybody who cares for their guns.

Good going guys.

[Mike from OK]

I'm a little slow on the uptake. So help me here...

Pyrodex is bad. I've garnered that much.

If you are doomed to only being able to buy subs, are you better off using 777?

Mike

[Bob Roller]

Further to that, some 17% by weight per charge is now perclorate, seems to me, whereas as noted

 by Bill, just a fraction of a grain weight - back in the day, made corrosive primers that rotted barrels.

So - your 70gr. Pyrodex load contains almost 12 grains of perchlorate.

I had a friend who owned a pristine WW2 Mauser K98 and got a box of ammo loaded in
1939 in Eastern Europe,Czechoslovakia maybe. I warned him it was corrosive primed and
he said,It's sporting,not military.two days later he asked me if I knew any way to get that barrel clean
and I told him,NO I do not.Hard lesson learned.

Bob Roller