Filing a swamp

[robert gene]

I saw in a recent post where Hershal used to hand file a swamp in a barrel. Can this be done safefly to a 15/16, 50. cal barrel?
 If so, what's the right way to do it? Thanks

[J. Talbert]

Well, I checked a "B" weight barrel that I've got and found that the waist measures 0.75" and the breech is approx. 1.005". (15/16" = 0.9375") So using that 0.75" as a guide,  I guess that answer is technically yes.  But that doesn't mean I would.  It just doesn't seem worth the effort and risk with all the other good barrels out there today.

PS.  I have hand filed a swamp in pistol barrel.  That's enough of that...!

[Sam Everly]

For the price of a swamp barrel it just ain't worth it. I had a round barrel blank ( Rifled) L.C. Rice gave me a few years back . It was a "project" he cooked up, and never finished . I wanted to make it a 1 1/8" x 44" .So i took a Big Electric hand grinder and did it by hand. It turned out ok but NEVER AGAIN! It looks like a hand forged barrel, I did not plan it that way but it turned out great !       

[northmn]

Often in projects the costs are not really an issue.  You have a barrel and want it swamped.  I would suggest that you could go doown to 13/16 at the waist easily.  Try taking a hack saw or a knife file and making a few cuts about 1/16 inch deep in the waist area as depth guides.  It will take considerable work as stated, but it takes more work to build from a blank than a precarved.  It takes more work to build your own hardware than to buy, such as buttplates, trigger guards and thimbles.  It takes more work to cut out inlays than to buy.  Almost none are cost effective for your time, but add to the pride when done.  Its a hobby for most of us.  If I were in business then cost effectiveness would be of more concern.

DP

[Stophel]

It is a LOT of work!  HARD work.  Filing, filing, filing.  Being a straight barrel, I will assume it is a Green Mountain.  While they're not 4140, the steel they use is still fairly tough, and filing it that much ain't fun.  Filing down a 4140 barrel would be slow suicide.

I started one once...

[ironwolf]

  GM barrels are hard as 'woodpecker lips'. 

  KW

[JTR]

Piece of cake!
Just start with a new file,
and have your wife bring food to the shop for about a week!
John

[Sam Everly]

The only reason i did the barrel blank was it was stress relived first . I have seen several barrels the Rice boys had to junk because of stress in the metal . And when machineing the flats they went every which way . That is why they bought the oven and anneal every blank first . After i ground the flats i still had a good workable barrel , but i hate to think what it could have done if not being stess relived first. That is a chance you would take trying to swamp the barrel from a stright barrel . You might end up with a lot of work in a Bent barrel.     

[Jim Filipski]

Heck I don't know what would be easier: Filing the swamp or forging the darn thing from scratch!! Unless you are out to prove something .............Buy one!
Jim

[Rolf]

Would you have the same stress problem if you made a round swamped barrel by turning the barrel on a lathe?


Best regards

Rolfkt

[George F.]

How about this one... filing a swamped oct. barrel to a  swamped oct. to round?

[Z. Buck]

i have  a pistol barrel most of the way done that i filed by hand its only 8 and a half inches long and that has taken me 20 hours with an almost new aggressive file, i plan on buying any barrels preswamped in the future and it the swamp needs changed a little then i will do that but never again from scratch

[Long John]

I've done it.  I survived and it wasn't as bad as some of these guys want you to believe.  Certainly, it will go a lot easier if the steel is one of the more cooperative alloys like 12L14.

First and foremost, you have to KNOW what the minimum barrel wall thickness you need for a safe barrel.  Generally, when I have done the arithmetic on something like a Getz barrel it comes out to be about 0.100".  With that info in mind you map out the profile on the barrel you plan to swamp - how large across the flats do you want it at each point along its length.  I divided the length into 3-inch-long sections and determined the across-the-flats dimension at each "station" along the barrel.  For each station subtract your desired dimension from the current dimension and divide the result be 2.  That will give you the amount of steel that must be removed from each flat at that station.  Using a rectangular file carefully file a groove exactly that deep across all 8 flats at that station. Go to the next station and repeat the process.  When you are done you will have a barrel with grooves filed across the flats, all the way around the barrel, at each station along the barrel's length.  The grooves have been carefully filed so that measuring from groove bottom to opposing groove bottom gives you the exact across-the-flats thickness the finished barrel is to be.  Once this is done draw file the barrel, one flat at a time until the grooves have just barely dissappeared.  You will now have a swamped barrel.  With 12L14 stock figure about 2 to 3 hours per foot of barrel, depending on how much you want to take off.

That's how I did it.  The rifle shoots great!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[J.D.]

Wouldn't it be easier to lay out the profile of the swamp for two opposing flats using layout dye and a long straight edge on the oblique flats to either side of the "target" flats?  Then cut the waist to depth on the two opposing flats, by sawing almost to depth and filing the ridges between the cuts, then repeating that process  up the taper, filing to the lines progressing from the waist to breech and muzzle.  Then repeating the process on the  two opposing 90 degree flats, and so on.

I have never swamped a barrel by hand, and may never do it, but laying out and filing or grinding to the lines seems easier than making tons of measurements that, IMHO only complicate the process.

As to stress relieving the barrel prior to filing, would heating the entire barrel in a trench of hot coals and allowing it to cool in the coals provide the temps necessary to properly relieve those stresses?

I  wonder if hack sawing cuts along the barrel and removing the bulk of metal with a side grinder might be easier...if sufficient care was taken to prevent cutting too deep. The bottoms of the cuts might work as a depth gauge to prevent grinding too deeply. Grinding would have to progress very slowly to prevent heat build up on the flats being ground.

Just kinda thinkin'...tying out loud, so to speak.
J.D.

[J Shingler]

How about this one... filing a swamped oct. barrel to a  swamped oct. to round?

I have done it. Took about two evenings to do. Marked off where start the round section and draw filed the eight sides to 16 by taking off the corners. Then chucked it in my 5' wood lathe. Four jaw chuck on one end and a live center I made out of oak and an old bearing. Supported by a couple 1" dowel rods with "V" cut in the end for a steady rest and filed the 16 flats to a round barrel. I  did buy a new lathe file. That is a file with more slope to the teeth made to file on spinning stock without clogging so much. Back when Fred Miller was going to friendship I got the octagon barrel the first weekend, turned it that week, I gue and back down for Fred to inlet in a pc. of wood the second weekend. I had motivation as Fred said I couldn't do it! LOL  It really wasn't bad.

[robert gene]

Thanks for all the input. Sounds like it's very "do able" just have to have the time on your hands.

[northmn]

There is such a thing as power tools which you can rough out things with.  I do not think I would want to go for final finish with a portable grinder, but it can take some of the busy work off of filing, you also may need to be careful and not overheat.  Good files also make a big difference.  Some seem to think its not proper to use things like bandsaws and routers for shaping stocks and think you should only use chisels and scrapers.  There were a variety of planes and other tools used by colonial craftsmen that helped to make the chips fly.  Same with metals, they did have big grinding wheels. 

DP

[Dphariss]

The use of hand held grinders greatly increases the chances of making a much shorter barrel.
If I were going to do this I would use hand tools only. Marking it with a hacksaw would be a way to make the filing go a little faster.
With the availability if swamped barrels its a lot easier to just buy a swamped barrel and save the straight one for another project.

Dan

[Robby]

In the time it takes to do all that filing, it seems, you could build a jig to mount a portable grinder and dies to guide it. Even with that, I would prep it as Long John suggested. Just a thought.

[Dphariss]

In the time it takes to do all that filing, it seems, you could build a jig to mount a portable grinder and dies to guide it. Even with that, I would prep it as Long John suggested. Just a thought.

For one barrel??
Still have the heat problem associated with a high RPM grinder unless you water cool.

Dan

[B Shipman]

A lot of Federal Period barrels had a lot less swamp than the standard ones we have and filing these isn't that bad. For example, I have a N. Hawk and the barrel is .880-.820-.850. If I ever do a documentary copy of it, I'd probably start with a 7/8 in. barrel and do it by hand. The eye isn't going to care about 5 thousands of an in.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Bill this is an early post for you. 
Filing a swamp into a barrel isn't nearly as taxing as filing one octagon from round.  I think my brother Daryl did one like that when he was younger.  When I made the wheellock, I took a piece of a Bauska .40 cal octagon barrel, turned it two thirds round, and then filed the octagon down to meet the wedding band.  I used an Autobody file known as a Vixen and it cut shavings off that leaded steel.

[Metalshaper]

Bill this is an early post for you. 
Filing a swamp into a barrel isn't nearly as taxing as filing one octagon from round.  I think my brother Daryl did one like that when he was younger.  When I made the wheellock, I took a piece of a Bauska .40 cal octagon barrel, turned it two thirds round, and then filed the octagon down to meet the wedding band.  I used an Autobody file known as a Vixen and it cut shavings off that leaded steel.

I can add my recommendation for this! 
If you can get ahold of a Vixen file,, they are great at taking off metal!!!  it works wonders on soft metals like aluminum and brass but will also do more than a fair job in 4130.

Respect Always
Metalshaper

[T*O*F]

If you can get ahold of a Vixen file,, they are great at taking off metal!!!

They are really designed for removing lead from the almost lost art of leading seams and dents instead of using Bondo.

They are excellent for doing pewter nosecaps because they don't clog, and sometimes they are good for wood too.

[44-henry]

There is a guy up here in North Dakota, Larry Forester, who works mainly on modern rifles and has become very well known in that sector for both his wood and metal work. He is particularly fond of making tapered octagon barrels for centerfire rifles and when I talked to him about it he said all he uses is a set of calipers and a bench grinder for the bulk of the work.