Any ideas on maker?

[Shreckmeister]

[rich pierce]

My goodness that is a grand rifle. Out of my areas of knowledge.

[Tanselman]

The "scooped" cheekpiece and highly curved rear or "set" trigger seem to suggest the North Carolina area. It's a great rifle wherever it was made.  Shelby Gallien

[Craig Wilcox]

With the brass-wrapped grip area, it looks like a repair may have been made.  Certainly a lot of attention and work went into all the engraved brass.
I am wondering what the rectangular slot or hole in the toeplate was for??
It is a nice looking ML, and does indeed appear to be from western N.C.

[Herb]

Jacob Wigle, Westmoreland County, PA.  There might have been a patchbox release in that toeplate, which might have been salvaged from another rifle.  Is the wear plate on the forestock slightly lop-sided?

[Herb]

Here is that rifle pictured in The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania by Rosenberger and Kaufmann, Plate 56:  I talked with the then owner years ago, in western Pennsylvania.

A similar rifle is in Whisker's book Arms Makers of Western Pennsylvania.


Besides these two rifles, the only other one I know Jacob Wigle built was found in a dry cave with the burial of a small mixed blood Indian boy near Vernal, Utah.  I restored that rifle for a museum and have researched Wigle extensively.  You can find some of this by doing Search, input Wigle and Herb and see what comes up.  With the degree of skill that Jacob had,  it is a mystery why we have found no other rifles made by him.

I discussed Wigle in the thread "Maker?" on August 25, 2018, down a few pages here.

[Shreckmeister]

Here is that rifle pictured in The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania by Rosenberger and Kaufmann, Plate 56:  I talked with the then owner years ago, in western Pennsylvania.

A similar rifle is in Whisker's book Arms Makers of Western Pennsylvania.


Besides these two rifles, the only other one I know Jacob Wigle built was found in a dry cave with the burial of a small mixed blood Indian boy near Vernal, Utah.  I restored that rifle for a museum and have researched Wigle extensively.  You can find some of this by doing Search, input Wigle and Herb and see what comes up.  With the degree of skill that Jacob had,  it is a mystery why we have found no other rifles made by him.

I discussed Wigle in the thread "Maker?" on August 25, 2018, down a few pages here.

Since the rifle in Rosenberger’s book is signed DJ And the other rifle is unsigned what is making this a Jacob Wigel?  It appears to be signed DJ And then a last name that is nearly obliterated

[Tanselman]

Are there photos available we could see of the details on the signed Wigle rifle, showing its carving and wear plate in particular, and perhaps a picture of the patchbox? Photos in the prior posting regarding Wigle don't show sufficient detail to make an attribution, but a few notable differences can be seen in the patchbox, patchbox hinge, and comb inlay. Shelby Gallien

[Shreckmeister]

Is it possible that Jacob was Wigle’s middle name. I may be seeing the first letter of the last name as a W

[Herb]

1.  A skilled builder made this rifle.
2.  Even if unsigned, the builder's hand shows commonalities with other builders where he lived.
3.  The features of this rifle are western Pennsylvania, particularly Westmoreland County.
4.  Those include patchbox sideplates extending past the hinge.  A hinge with 5 to 7 or 9 knuckles, maybe the end "knuckles" are caps.  Similar (Jacob Sell) butt plates and  similar trigger guards, many are Lebanon County, Track's #TG-K-4-B.  Some have comb plates and wear plates.
5.  Builders with similar rifles include at least Thomas Allison, Samuel McCosh, Elisha Pancost, David Morton, John Sherry, and George Kettering.  Wigle's rifles show similarities to some of these rifles, but he was a thinking man and did things his own way.
6.  I disassembled and minutely examined the only known rifle signed by him, and I see his hand in these three rifles.  Especially the use of lots of "stars" or crosses.
His tombstone has his name as Jacob Wigle.

His rifle after I cleaned it up for the museum display.

His combplate.  Was this a reused buttplate that had a patchbox release button previously?

His rifle on the bottom and my first copy at top.

The only rifle I know of with weeping hearts pointing both up and down.







The original lock and sideplate had been replaced.  Mine was a guess at what he might have had.

His wear plate  (top) was lopsided with crosses on it.

His brass work was beautiful.

His rifle at top showing toeline patchbox release (The front brass plate springs to push a rod).

Originally a flintlock, converted to caplock.

His patchbox.

I would like to see a good photo of the signature on the rifle you are posting about.  Where is the patchbox release?

[Lucky R A]

Hi Rob,
        As you remember Dave McIntire (departed) was a real student and collector of Clarion Co. guns and the work of gunsmiths associated with Clarion Co., and the surrounding area.  His knowledge of the associations between gunsmiths was extensive.  I remember him mentioning Wigle as being associated with John Sherry.   Check out Hop Harriger's book for info on Sherry.  There seems to be some similarity between their work.
Ron

[Shreckmeister]

Here is the sig

[Tanselman]

I appreciate the additional pictures of the signed Wigle rifle. After comparing the top two rifles initially posted to the new pictures of the Wigle rifle, I am struggling to see enough similarities to make an attribution. Unfortunately, I see many more significant differences that suggest, to my eye at least, two different makers.  Shelby Gallien

[Shreckmeister]

I appreciate the additional pictures of the signed Wigle rifle. After comparing the top two rifles initially posted to the new pictures of the Wigle rifle, I am struggling to see enough similarities to make an attribution. Unfortunately, I see many more significant differences that suggest, to my eye at least, two different makers.  Shelby Gallien

   I’m in agreement. I don’t see the similarities. So back to the question at hand. Who is DJ. I think I see the remnants of a last name in the second picture. I’m going to try using lighting and photography to bring it up

[Herb]

Lucky R A, thanks for your post.  You are the only person I ever heard mention Wigle as a gunsmith.   As to differences and similarities among these three rifles, I told you Jacob was a thinking man and did things differently.  The rifle in Whisker's "Arms Makers of Western Pennsylvania", a picture of which I posted above, has the same finial as the rifle in question here.  Different sideplates to the patchbox and to the lock.  Western PA patchbox hinge has fillers along it, as does the rifle I posted about.  Rifle in question here does not.  Of 47 patchboxes in Rosenberger's book "The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania", only one has fillers along the hinge, and that is one by Elisha Pancost.  The rifle here seems heavy to me, not slim and graceful, with an unusually long cheek piece..  Is that a thistle on the toeplate?  Whenever did you see a rear trigger like that?  The wearplates all three have crosses or stars on them, not a common feature.  All three rifles have long barrels, this one 43 3/4, the Western PA one probably 44 to 46 inches, and the one I worked on had been cut from 46 inches to much shorter.

So if you doubters come up with your phantom gunsmith who built the rifle in question here, please be so good as to share your discovery with us and post your proof.

[Herb]

Shreckmeister, I may be wrong.  Your rifle may have been made by Abraham Wigel, a brother to Jacob.  He apprenticed to Samuel Stickle in Westmoreland County and worked "about 1800 to 1805" (Arms Makers of Western Pennsylvania by Whisker)  They moved to Beaver County (now Lawrence County) about 1803.  About 1825-26 Wigel built a grist mill.  There are no signed rifles by him that I have found.  But this rifle looks so heavy that it has always bothered me.  The one in Arms Maker of West. PA seems to be by the same hand but slimmer.  Maybe Abraham made these two rifles, but you still have the problem of one signature and a rifle without one. Whisker (Gunsmiths of York County) says Jacob Wigel (shown in tax lists as also Wigle and Weigle) may have apprenticed to Samuel Stickle.  Jacob worked (listed in tax rolls as a gunsmith) from 1811 to 1844.  He must have made a lot of rifles, but I have never seen any "who made this rifle?" photos that remotely resemble his work, except this one, and the one in Western PA.  However...

Joe Salter listed a rifle for sale that had the name Wigle on it.  Who built this one?

First, the Jacob Wigle stamp on the rifle in Vernal that I worked on.

The stamp on the Joe Salter rifle.  Seems to be the same.

Salter buttstock.

Salter with a number.  Could that be a serial number?  Do not think gunsmiths did that.  Then what?

Salter rifle full length

Jacob Wigle buttstock out here before I "restored" it.

I am in contact with a descendant of Jacob Wigle who is researching the family name.  I'll send this to her and maybe she has information on some of the gunsmiths.

[Shreckmeister]

How are we going to justify a Wigle attribution with the DJ sig on the barrel that is original to the rifle in question. I’m not the owner. Researching for a friend

[Herb]

DJ is not the signature, it is only two letters of an indecipherable signature and I do not clearly see a "D" as that first letter.  I have no idea what it means.  Without any signature, this rifle could be attributed to a Wigle as the most likely possible gunsmith who could have built it.

[Shreckmeister]

I also question the D

[Herb]

And is it the maker's signature or the owner's, added by him?  If this builder built the other one from Whisker's Western PA book, without a signature, does that indicate he did not sign his work?  And where are all the Abraham Wigel rifles he might have built, and all the Jacob Wigle rifles he must have built?  No more signatures of either have been brought forward.  And Jacob's name was not signed but stamped.  Would a gunsmith have signed his name so faintly?  That does not fit with the very strong engraving on the rifle.  The Wigles were Dunkers and it may be that they did not believe in signing their work.

The Jacob Wigle rifle out here has a silver wrist plate with faint initials on it, presumably the first owner's.  I cannot determine them, but think they are MC.  They could be Michelle Cere' or Moses Carson, half brother to Kit Carson, all three of whom spent time in this immediate area. Or, who knows?  I have thought of going to some law enforcement agency where personnel have techniques to intensify stressed metal, perhaps an acid etch,  as in reading filed off serial numbers of firearms or engines, but did not do it.  It would probably discolor the metal and thus damage the antique.  But a jeweler might be able to read that signature with magnification.  However, I do not think that is the builder's signature and the best bet is attribution to a known gunsmith who worked in western Pennsylvania at the time that rifle was built.  And that is a Wigle, Abraham or Jacob.

[Shreckmeister]

The owner's name on the barrel would be rare. It appears to be an original maker's signature. MANY of them are very faint after years of wear based on my examination of
thousands of PA longrifles.  This is a typical engraved signature.  These barrels are soft material and wear is the norm.  Not signing work of this caliber is also on the rarer side,
not unheard of but more often than not signed.
MC could be anyone and Moses Carson or anyone else would be a wild guess.  I still don't see that this rifle more closely relates to J Wigle signed work than any other
Westmoreland county maker.  Hearts pointing in opposite directions are very common, particularly in Upper Susquehanna work.  Crosses are also common.  This rifle is high
quality work by a very experienced maker.  It's going to take more to convince me. 

1.  A skilled builder made this rifle. * not an indication of Wigle over anyone else"
2.  Even if unsigned, the builder's hand shows commonalities with other builders where he lived.  Commonalities of area are just that
3.  The features of this rifle are western Pennsylvania, particularly Westmoreland County.  Yes and there were many accomplished gunsmiths there.  Most of Western PA
was Westmoreland County prior to 1800.
4.  Those include patchbox sideplates extending past the hinge.  A hinge with 5 to 7 or 9 knuckles, maybe the end "knuckles" are caps.  Similar (Jacob Sell) butt plates and  similar trigger guards, many are Lebanon County, Track's #TG-K-4-B.  Some have comb plates and wear plates.
5.  Builders with similar rifles include at least Thomas Allison, Samuel McCosh, Elisha Pancost, David Morton, John Sherry, and George Kettering.  Wigle's rifles show similarities to some of these rifles, but he was a thinking man and did things his own way.
6.  I disassembled and minutely examined the only known rifle signed by him, and I see his hand in these three rifles.  Especially the use of lots of "stars" or crosses.
Here is another WPA rifle with hearts.

[Shreckmeister]

Jacob Ernest hearts Photo courtesy of Dr. whisker

[Shreckmeister]

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[Herb]

When you figure it out, let me know.   I'm done.

[Shreckmeister]

With some light, it think it's clearly DJ and more ending in DON



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