Author Topic: Need stock and lock. :-) (Read 3730 times)

Pukka Bundook · « **on:** October 08, 2018, 06:33:46 AM »

Gents,

The recent thread about the stock with no barrels and locks made me think of a similar problem I have;

A good mate from Ontario years ago found a V high end live pigeon barrel, by John Cox, of Southampton.
He was a bush pilot at the time, delivering supplies for seismic crews in N Ontario.
While hanging around waiting to fly out, he discovered an old fallen down cabin. Crawling in under the roof, he found a parcel wrapped in newspaper in the eaves. It contained this barrel. He searched high and low, but could not find the rest of the gun. He wondered if a seismic worker had found the rest.

So, If anyone down East knows of a V nice live pigeon gun by Cox, with a water-pipe for a barrel, I would very much like to hear about it!
The gun was a tube -lock, and the barrel is 8 bore.
I acquired this barrel ages ago, but have got no further with a rebuild. It is still very sound, and rings like Big Ben.

Enquiring about the cabin later, he found it had been the home of an eccentric Englishman, and that he had "just disappeared".

Chowmi · « **Reply #1 on:** October 08, 2018, 10:01:49 AM »

Beautiful barrel!

Off topic, but my wife is from just outside Southampton. We visit there often.

Hope you find a good example of the stock, preferably without a sewer pipe attached!

Norm.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2018, 04:01:52 PM »

Also off topic.....My GGGGG Grandfather was John Cox and fought in all of the Revolutionary war. He is also listed as a gunsmith and blacksmith and was located in Virginia, Kentucky and Indiana. Founded Abington Indiana and became a Justice of the Peace and was there after known as "Squire Tongs". It is said he practiced his smithing trades until his death. I have quite an extensive history on him and his son Joseph.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2018, 04:24:19 PM »

Norm,

If I found the original lock and stock, I wouldn't care What was attached as a barrel! LOL.

Mike,

Which side was he on? :-)
You may be a relative of the Southampton Cox. who knows??..............seeing as 'smithing still runs in the family.
Your GGGGG seems to have been a great asset to wherever he lived!

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2018, 04:44:37 PM »

Richard, that is an esquisitically nice barrel! You were a lucky guy when you got it from the bush pilot.

What, pray tell, is a "tube lock"? And the little shelf in front of the touch-hole?

Really hope that you can find some sort of lock to go with the sewer pipe.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2018, 04:47:01 PM »

Quote from: Pukka Bundook on October 08, 2018, 04:24:19 PM

Norm,

If I found the original lock and stock, I wouldn't care What was attached as a barrel! LOL.

Mike,

Which side was he on? :-)
You may be a relative of the Southampton Cox. who knows??..............seeing as 'smithing still runs in the family.
Your GGGGG seems to have been a great asset to wherever he lived!

He was a rebel.

This line of Cox's came to America in 1642, landed in Delaware to settle in the Swedish settlement. The original was named John and was a Swedish soldier in prison. He was offered freedom if he went to America to settle. He was the cook on the ship on the way over so the Anglos signed him in as "John the cook" when he landed. He signed his name John Koch. The name changed over the years, first Cock, then Cocks, then finally Cox. So, he wasn't English, but Swedish and we have no idea what his actual last name was.

My Grandfather Floyd Cox was also a gunsmith after he retired from trucking at 55 and worked for Freelan's in Rock Island Illinois untill he was in his 80's. He was baffled by my interest in hand making muzzleloaders, he came into my shop one day and watched me shaping out a stock. He finally shook his head and said " you know they have machines these days that do that for you"

I have a M1903 that he stocked up and shot in competition locally and at Camp Perry. Nice curly walnut stock. He was actually more of a small bore shooter and according to all of his medals he left to me was a fairly good shot. I still have his small bore gun too, with the slings and all the other impedimentia. Sorry for the ramble......

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2018, 05:03:15 PM »

Craig,

A Tube-lock was a somewhat different form of detonator. The fulminate was placed in a tiny copper tube, that fitted into the touchhole. This was held in place with a spring clamp, mounted often where a frizzen would be. The hammer or cock fell on this tube and fired the charge.
You can see the gold touchhole has a step in it, where the tube would butt up to.
They were invariably high end work, and used a lot on live pigeon guns where Huge wagers were placed, and sure-fire ignition demanded.
If I or anyone was to make this barrel up again, a late flintlock could be used, even with the stepped touchhole.

The little shelf is a bar, that the lock butted up against, and the barrel has an inset breech. I think it is beautifully filed up! All hand work of course, no mills and CNC!

I'll see if I can find a pic. of a tubelock....a bloke back home had a 6-bore by the same aker, but I lost contact with him.

Only found this one picture Craig, and it is a later type. Tubelocks were made early on in the percussion era usually, and the one in the OP. would be right around 1825 -6 I think. They held more fulminate than a cap, and so were about dead certain in ignition.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #7 on:** October 09, 2018, 05:00:14 PM »

Mike,

You had very interesting ancestors! I can see how the name changed. Vere interesting and no apologies required. Topic drift is what we are here for LOL!
As another example of name change;
Grandma's family is Hansell, and in the 1894 survey they have them down as "Ansell".
Being Yorkshiremen, we don't use an 'H' on the front of a word, so Hansell sounds like Ansell.... Except for herbs. Herbs Must have an H up front! :-)

JV Puleo · « **Reply #8 on:** October 09, 2018, 05:23:38 PM »

That's a fantastic barrel... but an appropriate lock would seem a real challenge. I've met a couple of lock collectors in the UK... do you want me to put the word out?

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #9 on:** October 09, 2018, 05:32:12 PM »

That would be very kind of you Joe. Please do so.

I will see if I can (re) -find the photos of an original Cox lock... It is quite different to the W'm Moore shown above.

bgf · « **Reply #10 on:** October 09, 2018, 09:34:19 PM »

The live pigeon shooting was a big deal with real money on the line! Be fun to know what use it was put to in northern Ontario.

I know the 12g loads in the early 1900s ran toward stiff for live pigeons. Would the 8 bore pattern better with similar loads due to shorter shot column or would it need an even larger load? I just recently came across a posted article from 1900s describing "amateur" pigeon/trap shooters trying to duplicate the (12g) loads used by the pros and physically injuring themselves due to the recoil!

Beautiful barrel and interesting history on the ignition.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #11 on:** October 09, 2018, 10:11:31 PM »

BGF,

Yes, 8 bores are known to produce beautiful patterns with more or less 12 gauge loads. You have it right re. the short shot column.
For pigeons, likely no 6 or 7 (UK size) would be used for a dense cloud! As you say, a great deal could hang on just one shot!

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2018, 01:08:10 AM »

Thanks, Richard, for the education on tube locks. With our cannon in the early 60's, sitting on a naval gun carriage and shooting at target matches in the Washington DC area, we had slim copper tubes with fulminate that slipped into the touch hole. A lanyard would snap the copper tube, and the cannon would fire. I had, and have, no idea where the tube igniters came from, but the cannon was made with a piece of 3" naval gun off a destroyer.

Totally fascinating learning about different mechanisms of ignition in firearms.

I am familiar with live pigeon shoots as done by the Spanish, and did not know that it was practiced so long ago with muzzle loading shotguns.

I wish you luck with the hunt for a stock and a lock. With your abilities, I have no doubt that you could build a suitable stock for that beautiful barrel!

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2018, 01:44:06 AM »

Craig,

I thought I'd ask on here about this one, as you never know!...Someone may have the rest on the wall with a bit of pipe for a barrel. Stranger things have happened!
Call it a Long shot!
If nothing turns up, and it well may not, I might just part with the barrel, as I have far too many projects already, and this one would take Time. :-)

PS,

Got hold of a pal back home who has a Cox L- Pigeon gun, and he is to send photos of the lock. (his is a 6 bore. )

Re live pigeon shoots;
As we said Huge wagers, (like the whole estate or whatever at times) . No fiddling about with petty cash. Wagering was phenomenal at that time. Billiards, horse -races and all.

The saying is that "The Old Hat's" pub at Ealing near London got it's name from early days of live pigeon shooting. (Old hats were placed over holes in the ground which held the birds, stings being attached to each topper.) Matches were held there in the early 1800's.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2018, 04:02:07 PM »

My old friend Feltwad sent me photos of his 6-bore Cox live pigeon gun.

I attach the photos here with his permission;
Must say, I was very surprised that the lock was of the same general type as the Moore above. I have seen more tubelocks with the earlier vise mounted as and where the frizzen would be mounted, and thought this gun would be of that type. This lock would be easier to make, In Theory!
Beautiful file-work on Feltwad's false breech/tang.

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2018, 04:16:00 PM »

Richard, the firearm pictured is fascinatingly beautiful! Obviously a special-purpose firearm, with a unique forend.

I had visions of the tube being hit by the cock, totally enclosed in the stepped touchhole. I see what you mean by the tube being held in a vise-like arrangement, hitting the tube along it's length. Did that not also produce visible flame out the side of the action, or was the tube enough to prevent that, and have the whole "spark" go into the combustion chamber.

Made some fulminate of mercury and some gun cotton while in chemistry at the University. Both worked very well, but I am not about to do so now - they have made it a Federal crime to play with explosives. And yes, still have all my fingers....

Really appreciate you providing me with a well-rounded education on antique firearms - keep up the good work!

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #16 on:** October 10, 2018, 08:24:10 PM »

Richard, I have the lock you need. It is a five pin Roller lock. You'd have to make the hammer and add to the plate to duplicate Feltwad's masterpiece, but you have the skill for that. I'll post an image of it here in a bit.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #17 on:** October 11, 2018, 06:35:34 AM »

Craig,

The tube had the end crimped over so most of the flame went into the touchhole, but early ones used to spit the tube out at times, so a bit bad if standing to the right.
I had a few tubes about here somewhere. Very small diameter!

Taylor,
I would love to see the lock you mention! Maybe this Is doable, but you have way too much confidence in my abilities! (Maybe you need a barrel.....) :-)

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2018, 01:14:39 AM »

Well, a source for the tubes would be the capillary tubing used on a/c's and heaters. But I am not even going to guess on a source of the fulminate of mercury.

Those do seem to be very high-end shootin' irons, well worth wagering the family estate (or your daughter's virtue) on your ability to massacre a bunch of pigeons. Not!

Still, like many of us, I love looking at, touching, and even shooting such quality firearms. So if you really want to get rid of that nasty old barrel with some kind of yellow stuff staining the breech...….

Mr. Roller's lock sounds like just the ticket, with some fancy English Walnut for the stock - and like Mr. Roller, I know that you have the skills to do it up right.

wormey · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2018, 11:56:19 PM »

There is priming compound available that you mix yourself. Sold mostly for reloading 22 rimfire. Lots of youtube videos on the process. I have reloaded 32 rimfire for some early smiths by using acetone to liquify the fulminate in musket caps and transferring it to the rimfire case. Works like a charm. It would work for these tubelocks no doubt. Wormey

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2018, 12:30:57 AM »

Thank you for the info, Wormy. Very useful to know!

Richard.

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Author Topic: Need stock and lock. :-) (Read 3730 times)