Author Topic: What is accurate  (Read 6428 times)

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14391
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2018, 08:16:37 PM »
LOL- Taylor and Darkhorse are spot-on. This is an offhand target - 5 shots at 25 yards with a deep groove Bauska barrel. .448" bore, .504" groove to groove.- .028" deep rifling.
.457" ball and .022" denim patch. mathematically the ball is shy of compression in the bottom of the grooves, however with so much lead 'moved' by the lands, the fit was actually tight in the
bottom of the grooves. Patched ball seated into the muzzle and pulled back out showed this. I feel weave marking all the way around the ball is necessary for the best accuracy and clean shooting
where there is no fouling buildup, shot to shot. Thus, loading is easy as there is only one shot's fouling and it is softened by the lube used, whether animal fat or water based.



Taylor has a 5-shot target shot on 1/2 a target that makes this one LARGE!  Of course, I had only started working up the load for this barrel.

 
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5288
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2018, 09:31:34 PM »
Yep, most of us are well past our "use by" date.  I had cataracts removed a couple of years ago.  Vision in the left eye is 20/20 but the right is either 20/35 or 20/25, just can't remember.  Problem with the right is the focus center on the retina is a blind spot that puts it right on the front sight.  So no more offhand 100 yard groups of under 4" for me.

5 offhand shots counting flier.


!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1630
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2018, 04:16:19 AM »
Two nice targets Darkhorse, demonstrating the potential of the rifles' accuracy.  I too have difficulty holding like that offhand whereas thirty years ago, it was routine.  Most of us may have passed our "Best Before" dates.

My biggest problem with shooting offhand now is I can't hold the rifle steady anymore. I have degenerative joint disease in both shoulders and when I try to hold a rifle my shoulder just pops and jumps around, not to mention sapping my strength. So I've learned to shoot with sticks, trees, bags, anything. I used to never shoot off the bench, now I like it a lot. I like striving for tiny groups and testing lubes and patches.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3156
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2018, 04:33:37 PM »
Darkhorse,
I tore the tendons out my left shoulder and never did get them fixed, and it doesn't help for off- hand.

Out of interest, here is a pals Percussion musket target, shot at 50 metres off-hand.  I think it's his best so far. He lives in UK.  (13 shots, 10 best to score)
It's musket bore , or 10 gauge.  he shot this with a smaller ball and a decent patch...


It was shot on the big old Concours target, at an International shoot, and believe he took Gold with it, but I added it here to make the point that at short range, a load can be worked up for unrifled arms that will work well, and that shooting Rifled arms too close in does not show them at their best.

Best regards,
Richard.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 04:35:39 PM by Pukka Bundook »

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5288
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2018, 11:51:12 PM »
I've had two shoulder surgeries, left & right.  Along with that also add "essential tremors". 

I don't recall ever taking an offhand shot at a deer.  The one time I would have - the deer was less than 25 yards - I dropped to my knee and took the shot.  I always kneel, sit or use a tree for a prop; I never just stand there on my hind legs like a human and take a shot.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12420
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2018, 12:51:18 AM »
Each to his own.  I cannot shoot worth a hoot from one knee!! I can think of only one shooter I know that has no medical issues.  He is young like I was once, and never practices.  He's untouchable ... an incredible shot.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3156
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2018, 06:42:53 AM »
You were once young as well , Taylor?!  Same here!  LOL.

Hanshi,
Same here, I always take a lean on anything handy.  Different with a shotgun though....

Offline Huntschool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2018, 07:19:07 AM »
I learned a long time ago that a rest is always better, if its your knee sitting down or a tree to hold yer gun against.  Learn to shoot to your advantage.  We are getting older.
Bruce A. Hering
Program Coordinator/Lead Instructor (retired)
Shotgun Team Coach
Southeastern Illinois College
AMM 761
CLA

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5288
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2018, 11:02:58 PM »
If I kneel for a shot I'm actually sitting on my right heel with my left elbow on my left knee.  Not as solid as sitting but still pretty solid.  I put standing offhand shots in the same "risk" category as taking headshots at deer.  I've done some excellent offhand shooting in the past; but that was then, this is now.  But even back then I refrained from offhand shots on game.  Squirrels are an exception.  Sometimes, if rarely, one has to take the shot offhand or not take the shot.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Davemuzz

  • Guest
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2018, 05:45:53 PM »
We are getting older.

Speak for yourself!!  And in addition to that.....lemme say....??.......Darn I forgot what I was gonna say.  :-\

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1630
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2018, 06:49:05 AM »
LOL- Taylor and Darkhorse are spot-on. This is an offhand target - 5 shots at 25 yards with a deep groove Bauska barrel. .448" bore, .504" groove to groove.- .028" deep rifling.
.457" ball and .022" denim patch. mathematically the ball is shy of compression in the bottom of the grooves, however with so much lead 'moved' by the lands, the fit was actually tight in the
bottom of the grooves. Patched ball seated into the muzzle and pulled back out showed this. I feel weave marking all the way around the ball is necessary for the best accuracy and clean shooting
where there is no fouling buildup, shot to shot. Thus, loading is easy as there is only one shot's fouling and it is softened by the lube used, whether animal fat or water based.



Taylor has a 5-shot target shot on 1/2 a target that makes this one LARGE!  Of course, I had only started working up the load for this barrel.

This is a 10 shot target off my homemade portable bench, shot late in the afternoon. This target made me realize why benchrest shooters have one target for aiming and another one for bullet impact. After about my third shot the aiming point was no longer distinguishable and I was more or less guessing where to aim. While this is a one hole 10 shot group that many would probably be satisfied with it is not at all what I wanted to accomplish. For one thing it is too large a group and badly shaped. When really trying to test a rifle or patch or lube then everything must be taken into consideration or something unlooked for might step in and mess up a good target.
I do plan on shooting more 10 shot groups, I have some new lube I want to try and some new patch material. I have several front sights I made for this gun and I'll stick one of those in so I don't shoot out my aiming point again.



American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12420
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2018, 08:38:19 PM »
Move out to fifty yards.  If you make that mess again at fifty, you're getting somewhere.  A rifle from a bench at 25 yards should be able to do that without issue.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3156
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2018, 10:23:30 PM »
Exactly Taylor.  Well put.

Good start , Dave Muzz!

rfd

  • Guest
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2018, 05:16:47 PM »
"accuracy" will always be in the eye of the beholder and in the mind of the shooter.  we are our only competition.  whilst lots depends on the gun, the load, the eye, the trigger finger, i ascribe to an era and prefer to handicap myself via the 18th century.  it's more fun that way, and always a good excuse or two. ;) 

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1630
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2018, 12:29:31 AM »
Per Taylor's suggestion I moved back to 50 yards. I had some new patching from Eastern Maine shooting supplies I wanted to test and some new Mr. Flintlock lube also.
Best I could tell the rifle put every shot where the sights were. The group is large because of the shooter. In a few days these eyes will be 66 years old and they ain't what they used to be.
At first I had some difficulty with where to hold the front sight. The first few shots I had a little white over the sight, these are the high shots. Later I held with most of the white over the sight, those are the majority of the shots. I just don't see like I used to.
For some reason my rear bag kept moving around no matter what I tried. I just never could get it to lock in like usual. I knew this would have an effect on the group but I hoped the effect would be minimal. I attribute the horizontal spread mostly to the rear bag.
I'm not at all satisfied with today's results. I called most of those bad shots and if I know why the shot went bad then I should be able to correct it. So I will try it again but probably after deer season's over and I start getting ready for turkey season.
The OP asked "What is accurate?", are we asking about the innate ability of a rifle? Or that same rifle in the hands of it's shooter? If somebody with more ability, probably younger eyes also, was shooting this rifle for a group, then I would consider this a very accurate rifle. But with me shooting it the rifle doesn't seem as accurate as I know it is.
Of course, I am very hard to please as I am driven to perfection in every endeavor though seldom, if ever, achieved. Still we are what we are.

American horses of Arabian descent.

rfd

  • Guest
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2018, 12:41:50 AM »
good 'nuff shootin ron.  sometimes i use a lead sled to take the shooter out of the barrel/sight testing equation.

Offline Don Steele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 660
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2018, 01:23:53 AM »
I recommend caution when using a lead sled to evaluate loads in any rifle , but especially in a traditional longrifle with a slender wrist in the stock.
If thereís no movement possible when the rifle goes off, the entire kinetic energy generated will be absorbed by the wrist/buttstock. You might be ok with very mild loads.. I donít know.
I DO know that men using one of those to test and evaluate heavy dangerous game loads have come away with broken stocks.
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12420
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2018, 04:38:19 AM »
Ron, that is very nice shooting, whether you're satisfied with it or not.  It shows consistency, and thus potential.  I'd say both the rifle and the shooter are accurate.  I'm surprised that the group is thus, with such a small charge.  Interesting.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1630
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2018, 08:23:19 AM »
Taylor, This rifle is strange indeed. I have done a lot of shooting testing different powder charges, patches, and lubes to get to know this rifle. It likes what it likes not what I want it to like. I did not expect this from a Rice barrel.
For my 50 yard accuracy load 30 grains is what it wants. At that charge patch thickness doesn't matter so I shoot a .015 patch because it loads easier and I need all the help I can get for these shoulders. It shoots best with a liquid lube like the Original Lehigh Valley or Mr. Flintlock's lube. Going to Mink oil or Bore Butter the POI changes to way high and begins to open the group.
35 grains shoots good but at 40 grains the group opens considerably. 50 grains gives a wide group and at this point I change to .0175 Pillow Ticking, the good dense stuff. But 60 grains tightens it back to most shots touching. This is my turkey load, 60 grains 3f, .0175 ticking, and canola oil for a hunting lube. I've shot this at 100 yards a few times with baseball size groups. I've never even tried any higher charge because 60 grains does what I want.
So basically out of all this testing I've got 2 loads that will shoot the same hole. The 30 grain load for 25 and 50, and the 60 grain which shoots inside a turkey's head at 50.
The lock has tested my patience since the very beginning. The first spring I called in a big Tom and the mainspring broke when I cocked the rifle. I put set triggers on this rifle and never could get a good group so I've polished the lock 3 times. Finally I got serious about finding the problems, it took 8 pounds of pressure to open the frizzen, every shot I felt the lock slam and could see the front sight jump off the target. Now it takes 3 pounds to open the frizzen, and the benefits were obvious immediately.
For a long time this rifle didn't get shot much because it was so inaccurate and aggravating. But now it has become my favorite. I just had to put in the time to get all the bugs worked out. Now I need to work things out at the 100 yard mark. That's a whole new set of shooting and testing.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline sespe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2018, 11:06:01 PM »
This is accurate enough for me to start with.  Being the first rifle I built, I'm pretty proud.  I think it's clear the shooter is the issue, not the rifle.

50 grains 2F, .530 ball, and a spit-lubed cut up t-shirt for patching.  (Guess who forgot the patches at home...)

Tom Glauser

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7381
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2018, 03:52:58 AM »
Gosh o gee sespe, 530 ball and t-shirt material sounds like a real loose load in any 54 rifle I have ever had. I would bet that your gun could be a real tac driver with a thicker patch and or 535 ball. JMHO

Offline sespe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2018, 04:19:08 AM »
Gosh o gee sespe, 530 ball and t-shirt material sounds like a real loose load in any 54 rifle I have ever had. I would bet that your gun could be a real tac driver with a thicker patch and or 535 ball. JMHO

Yep!  It was super-easy to load, though.   :)  And I went halfway through the 34-shot trailwalk before wiping the bore.    Groups opened up at 50, and I never shot my 100 yard target in the match. 
Tom Glauser

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7381
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2018, 05:47:00 AM »
Just curious sespe, what make of barrel is that 54?

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1630
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2018, 09:04:18 AM »
Sespe, I would increase the powder charge to 55 grains of 2fg, then try 60 grains of 2fg. Along with a good patch, pillow ticking at .0175 has always worked good for me, and your groups should really shrink.
FWIW this new patch material from Eastern Maine shooting supplies turned out to be a good dense weave, just what I was looking for. They have an ebay store also and offer a variety of thickness's at good prices.
I always hated shooting those targets, I seldom got my shots in the right places.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1065
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: What is accurate
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2018, 01:14:37 PM »
Smylee...One problem I see is that what is good shooting to some is not even close to others.

It'll always be that way.   Friday I went to my favorite gunstore with a project I only half wanted to flip, and we never made it to gunbroker.  Some Gent bought it right then and there at the counter.  On the ride home I had a nagging sellers remorse.  The good news is that the feller who bought it had some buyers remorse.

Told you that part so I could tell you this.  When he brought it back and I gratefully had to eat the sale,  my dealer said this gent could not get it to group.  Sum Beech but that'll get under yore skin.  So I went right over to the range.  I noticed he made a mark on the ramrod indicating a larger load.  He also left a lot of bore butter around the muzzle.   I'm guessing he thought he was getting more velocity but had a bad ball/patch combo and could not equal the velocity I got with a lighter load or different powder or different ball patch com,bo. 

Anyhoo, I am glad he brought it back,  but from now on whenever I flip a piece I will put a ball and patch in the patchbox along with a freebie measure.

This is a great post because Daryl, Hanshi, Dark Horse and all the others consistently give good advice.

I'll remain a gong dinger on a trail walk, tho.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid

Capgun