Author Topic: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs  (Read 2988 times)

Online Dennis Daigger

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Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« on: October 18, 2018, 11:00:10 PM »
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around muzzleloader components being secured in the stock simply with 1/16" diameter steel dowels and have a couple of questions.

Is anything gained by using a 3/32" pin rather than a 1/16" or is the 1/16" pin sufficient?

Is there any advantage to using two pins for each pipe or is one sufficient?

I'm developing a great respect for you folks that build muzzleloaders and thanks to Mike Brooks' tutorial it makes understanding the processes easier.
Thanks,
Dennis

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 11:07:24 PM »
The amount of pins depends on the correctness of the rifle you are copying.  If they are loose with one pin and you don’t care about how correct the rifle is,  add another. 

Online Stoner creek

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 11:11:10 PM »
That little 1/16” pin is stronger than the stock after shaping.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 11:27:53 PM »
If you try to tear off a thimble held with a 1/16" pin, the wood will give way first.

A bigger pin is harder to hide in the moldings and carvings.

ALR's Dave Rase sold a fixture for drilling the pin holes at one point. This makes the task so much easier. You can actually plan where you want the holes to be.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 12:56:51 AM »
I have never used anything larger than 1/16" piano wire or drill rod and have never had a problem. Only time I use two pins on a thimble is for decoration or match an original.
Dennis
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 01:05:32 AM »
Dennis, good point on the hardened pins: the ends won't peen over as the pins get tapped in and out.

A burr on a soft pin will likely tear wood out of the stock around the hole. Soon your gun will look like an antique, with 1/8" thimble holes.  ;D
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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 01:17:22 AM »
If you try to tear off a thimble held with a 1/16" pin, the wood will give way first.

A bigger pin is harder to hide in the moldings and carvings.

ALR's Dave Rase sold a fixture for drilling the pin holes at one point. This makes the task so much easier. You can actually plan where you want the holes to be.

Wish I had used 1/16 piano wire on my second build instead of 3/32 pins...….would have looked better. Had them lying around and thought I'd go ahead and use them up...….. :(
aka “digger658”

Offline Huntschool

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 01:47:02 AM »
I have only used 1/16 pins on all my guns save those with keys.  As Acer said, if you try and tear a thimble out the wood will likely go first.  Heck, I know a couple of folks that have used finishing nails and hardened them with a torch and then installed..... May not have been the best way but it worked.

Just some thoughts.....
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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 05:37:22 AM »
1/16" is plenty strong.  And actually, as Huntschool said, I confess I use finishing nails... exactly what I use, and I don't even harden them.  There is no reason for such heroic measure to hold stock to barrel or thimble to stock.  It could be argued that less peening and thus, tearing of wood will occur if they are hardened, and it does deserve serious consideration.  For trigger pins, I do use 1/16" drill rod, and I do harden and temper this.  This is because I make a trigger assembly, and do not pin the trigger directly to the wood.

I only us a single pin at each attachment point, with the exception of the entry thimble, where I always use two.  Now, if I were copying a rifle, of course, I would follow the original makers design.  But I don't copy anyone, so this is just the way I do it.  The reason I do it this way is because all entry thimbles I have installed so far have had a tail, and I believe this makes a more secure fitting.  Having the brass tail snag on a twig may bend, but damage to wood, at least theoretically, should be reduced if not eliminated.  Also, my thimble bodies are generally around 1.5", so they are not very long, and one pin should be sufficient.

M. E. Pering

Offline rsells

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 07:08:15 AM »
My norm is to use a single pin (1/16) on the ramrod pipes, and I have not had any issues all these  years.  However, I am build a rifle now copying an unusual original full stock Hawken that used two pins on each pipe, and my contemporary rifle will be assembled the same.  I use 1/16 pins on the stock and underlugs as well without any issues.
                                                                                            Roger Sells
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 07:11:19 AM by rsells »

Online Dennis Daigger

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 08:21:24 AM »
Thanks to everyone for the advice.  Way more than I asked for but all of the additional information was something that I needed to know but didn't know enough to ask about.  I got a simplistic jig made this afternoon and will get the pins in this weekend.
Dennis

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2018, 01:20:53 AM »
A building note if I may:

I install my pins, slides (keys), and lock bolts from the same side of the stock, and withdraw them from that side too.  That way you don't walloon the holes for the pins by driving them right through.  I tap them out using a pin punch of slightly smaller diameter than the pins themselves, which are 1/16" welding rod.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2018, 01:38:09 AM »
I detest wallooning…. ;)
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2018, 01:39:54 AM »
I failed to mention that I chuck my pins in my drill and lightly chamfer the end to help prevent splintering.
Dennis
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Online Tim Crosby

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2018, 03:38:04 PM »
 FWIW After drilling the pin holes on RR pipes and barrel, David's jig is great, I use round wooden tooth picks to hold the barrel while working the stock. Chucked up in a drill and run through the 1/16ths hole on a drill gauge they work great. The little flags they use to mark utilities around here work well for permanent pins they are right at 1/16th. I also file the lugs a bit laterally for movement.

  Tim C. 





« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 07:38:34 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline sqrldog

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2018, 06:00:40 PM »
I suppose I do it differently I use 5/64 pins. Not much larger in diameter but the drill bit is less prone to wander and break. I buy pin stock at the local hobby shop. Just my two cents worth. Tim

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2018, 06:53:21 PM »
Tim,
I might would use them if I had access to 5/64" music wire that would be .078" versus 1/16" which is .0625". I doubt they would look much larger than 1/16". They probably would be easier to tap in and out since they are a tad larger.

I tried 3/32" which are .093" and they were too large for my taste.
Dennis
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2018, 07:19:31 PM »
Ok, since everyone else is chiming in..... I use 1/16" pins in pipes, 5/64" pins in under lugs and trigger pins.
Like Dennis said, the 5/64" pins are a little easier to drill and tap in and remove.  Use it on barrel, as those are more likely to be removed than pipe pins.
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Offline Jerry

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2018, 07:35:08 PM »
Tim,
I might would use them if I had access to 5/64" music wire that would be .078" versus 1/16" which is .0625". I doubt they would look much larger than 1/16". They probably would be easier to tap in and out since they are a tad larger.

I tried 3/32" which are .093" and they were too large for my taste.
Dennis
Dennis, For years, I used .078 diameter wire made from the old wire coat hangers.

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2018, 12:08:36 AM »
I picked up an idea from Acer on the pins I use to build with. 1/16 steel wire 2 inches long-thereabouts, bent over in a 90 degree         and tapered on the end that goes into the wood. This way, during the build, the pins are easy to remove,and when you reach the finish part, then make your final assembly pins and be done.
Also, an added plus to the long, bent over pins, they are wonderful snags and catches for old tired eyes on anything close at hand.,reason for dulling the long end. hahaha
Dave 8) 8)

Online Dennis Daigger

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2018, 05:00:08 AM »
Got the underlug pins and ramrod pipe pins in today.  The jig worked well.  1/16" all around.

Again, thanks for all the advice.  Just what I needed.







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Offline Daryl

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2018, 05:26:28 AM »
I failed to mention that I chuck my pins in my drill and lightly chamfer the end to help prevent splintering.
Dennis

yes, of course. both ends
Daryl

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Offline flehto

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Re: Pinning for ramrod pipes, trigger, barrel underlugs
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2018, 04:51:34 PM »
All the pins in all  my builds are 1/16 dia music wire and all have a chanfer on both ends done  on a disk sander. Seeing the  mounting tabs of the RR pipes are only 1/2" long, only 1 pin per pipe is used...including the entry pipe. I like the "stiffness" of the hardened  music wire  and the uniform dia. ....no polishing or fiddling around. .....Fred