Va Rifles with stepped wrists.

[bnail]

 Is a stepped wrist and Domed English lock compatible elements on a Va. Rifle? If so, does anyone know wher i might get the plans for it? Or at leaat point me torward the appropriate documentation.

[tiswell]

I can't provide documentation but here is a link you might find interesting. https://www.claysmithguns.com/winchester_early.htm

                                                                                                                                                         Bill

[rich pierce]

Well, the Brass-Barreled Rifle has been attributed to Virginia by some/many including Wallace Gusler and some/many of the later Honaker rifles are documented to Virginia and have stepped wrists.  Th3 BBR and later Honaker rifles are so distinctive that they do not give a builder much license to build a step-wristed early rifle of different or generic design and call it an early Virginia rifle in my view. 

Google “Brass-Barreled Rifle”. Go to link below then click on “view item”

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11373240_6-early-brass-barrel-kentucky-rifle-dated-1771-attrib

[bama]

The early F. Klette rifle had a stepped wrist but it has a Germanic lock. I think that a round faced lock would look great on a rifle based on the Klette rifle. I used a Chambers early Ketland on my Iron Mounted version of the Klette butI would not hesitate to use one of Jim's Virginia locks if I built this rifle again.

 

[bnail]

Thats it! Thats the architecture i invisioned. 
What patchbox styles could work with that style

[Mike Brooks]

Thats it! Thats the architecture i invisioned. 
What patchbox styles could work with that style

The one that is on it. You need some books.

[bnail]

I would respectfully disagree.  If i wanted to replicate a Klette rifle then that patchbox definately is the one. But if that style is indicative of a certain region i would think that there are other ptchbox options [or at least variations of] from which to choose. As for books, you are correct. My education is just beginning and i have much reading to do. But unfortunately all i have is RCA for now. 

[rich pierce]

Bruce, one of the challenges in building early rifles when there are very few examples that can be reasonably attributed to a specific place and time, is that there is little reason to be confident that one example is representative of what was going on in an area around that time.

Examples:
Musician’s rifle 1750’s?  Nothing like it before or after (I am baiting EK here lol)
Schreit rifle 1761.  Berks County, PA, originally with a stepped wrist, quite different from the other Reading rifles
Brass-barreled rifle possibly Virginia,possibly made by a Honaker, 1771.  Does not seem representative of a “type”.

This does not at all preclude anyone from being creative. I’d just not call it a Klette or whatever.

[Mike Brooks]

Is a stepped wrist and Domed English lock compatible elements on a Va. Rifle? If so, does anyone know wher i might get the plans for it? Or at leaat point me torward the appropriate documentation.

Start over here....Time period is fairly critical. Later guns other than the Honakers  "pretty much" didn't have a stepped toe. There aren't enough "early" guns to make an educated choice. The Klette rifle is a 'one off" as are most all of the "early" rifles that have a VA attribution.
The big English round faced locks belong on "early" guns. You can copy one of the existing VA. attributed guns with a stepped toe and use the round faced English lock or you can go with something that is historically plausible, but never existed per say. I've seen H. House do Woodbury guns with a stepped toe and an English round faced lock that look as convincing as you could ever want, yet never existed in history. All depends on what you want to do.
 

[bnail]

Thanks Rich, that helps.  I need to study these southern Rifles in greater detail.  But i now have general idea in where i want to end up.

[bnail]

Thanks Mike.  This whole interest started after Seeing one of Herschels Rifles.  I decided a  (Germanic?) influenced Southern Rifle was where i wanted to end up. The Round Faced Lock was a personal preference.
Patchbox is actually not even that important to me just trying to piece these elements together in my head.

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks Mike.  This whole interest started after Seeing one of Herschels Rifles.  I decided a  (Germanic?) influenced Southern Rifle was where i wanted to end up. The Round Faced Lock was a personal preference.
Patchbox is actually not even that important to me just trying to piece these elements together in my head.

When I used to do a lot of generic stepped toe "VA" rifles I'd often use a wood box or a two piece metallic box, Safe choices and hard to have somebody tell you it is "wrong".

[J.E. Moore]

You could always buy that patchbox and modify it with your own touches. Unless you just don't like that style at all.

[bnail]

You could always buy that patchbox and modify it with your own touches. Unless you just don't like that style at all.

That is an awesome suggestion, thanks .   I just wasn't thinking out of the [patch]box

[bgf]

Bruce, one of the challenges in building early rifles when there are very few examples that can be reasonably attributed to a specific place and time, is that there is little reason to be confident that one example is representative of what was going on in an area around that time.

Examples:
...
Brass-barreled rifle possibly Virginia,possibly made by a Honaker, 1771.  Does not seem representative of a “type”.

I agree with the sentiment especially when date and area of origin are hotly contested, but with the BBR, the existence of RCA 145  seems to indicate a "type" at least, and I have drunk the WG kool-aid, finding the construction elements compelling reason to examine SW Va. as a possibility..  Actually I think 145 is the nicer rifle, especially the carving, which also seems to relate stylisyically to other makers, such as Eaby...not the abstract rococo found on PA rifles.

[Elnathan]

Off the top of my head, in addition to the guns mentioned above:

The Brass barrel gun has a sister, RCA 145, which also has a stepped wrist.

RCA 125 has a stepped wrist.

There is a whole series of late 18th century and early 19th century step-wristed rifles from SW Virginia, such as the iron-mounted GB rifle. The MESDA rifle may be part of this tradition.

The Cellar rifle (Bivins 1) has a stepped wrist.

The Philip Shatz (Sheetz) rifle has a kind of vestigial stepped wrist that is more of a widening towards the comb than a true step.

The signed Conrad Humble rifle has a stepped wrist - it is actually from Kentucky, but Humble was trained in and spent  the first part of his of his working career in Virginia. There is another rifle attributed to Conrad Humble that also has a subtle stepped wrist.

None of these have a round-faced lock, interestingly enough. A lot of that may just be the fact that most were built after the round-faced locks became passe. They do show that the stepped wrist was alive and well in VA for quite some time, perhaps more so than in PA which outside of the Lehigh area seems to largely dropped the stepped wrist by the end of the Revolution.

[blackbruin]

Is a stepped wrist and Domed English lock compatible elements on a Va. Rifle? If so, does anyone know wher i might get the plans for it? Or at leaat point me torward the appropriate documentation.

It all depends who builds the rifle, some know how to make it work and others well they just make it....

[rich pierce]

As I now see that at Christians Spring, for example, Germanic, English, and at least one English-styled American-made locks were used, I am starting to think they used what they could get in the years leading up to the Revolutionary War.  I don’t know if we can extrapolate that to anywhere else, or a later timeframe.  I don’t think a round-faced English lock is “right” after 1790 unless “recycled” but others know more about export locks than I do.

If you’re not making a close copy of a specific original I think there’s some freedom.

[bama]

Every time I hear someone say they never did that, a gun comes along to prove different. I am in agreement with Rich, in that I believe that they used what the could get. Now that is not to say that just like today we tend to use what we like if it is available and I believe that they did the same thing. I have used a round faced lock on what I would call a early styled Virginia rifle and it looked great. Did a round faced English lock ever get used back in the day, I don't know. I can tell you this, the rifle I built with the round faced English lock shot like a house on fire and killed deer and that is all that matters in the end.

Yes we like to stay traditional with yesterday but that don't mean we can not do something a little different today. If we are lucky 200 years from now this same argument will still be going on

[Daryl]

Bama- I think this rifle would look very nice with a round-faced lock. It would compliment, or be complimented by the wrist & area behind the wrist on this gun, rounding into the forend.

[Elnathan]

Bama- I think this rifle would look very nice with a round-faced lock. It would compliment, or be complimented by the wrist & area behind the wrist on this gun, rounding into the forend.

I think that the Klette rifle there is generally believed to date from the 1780s, if not the 1790s, after the round-faced locks became passe. Unless I've missed something....

It would look nice, though.

[bnail]

Later would work for me as i would like to put a 46" barrel on it preferably in .62 cal. And i'm partial to the Germanic lines But i  was afraid the desired length might conflict with architechture.

[Ed Wenger]

This is a rifle I built using a pattern tracing from the original Klette rifle.  I used the Chambers round face Germanic lock, which I thought went well with the early design of the piece.

Stevensburg, VA wasn’t incorporated until the early 1790’s, and is where F. Klette lived.  This has always been one of my favorite American rifles.  I love the architecture of the piece, it’s early characteristics, and that it was most likely built well after what we would typically think of as “early”.

        Ed

[smallpatch]

Wow Ed,
Let's see some more of that one!

[Ed Wenger]

Thanks, Dane.  Don’t want to hijack a thread..., do a search for “iron mounted riflegun”, should come up, or “Stevensburg”.  I posted photos a while back...


     Ed