Small caliber smooth rifles

[Huntschool]

OK, so there has been a lot of discussion regarding accuracy in rifled gun loads and also some conversation on smooth bore loads and accuracy.

Seems that most of the smooth bore comments regard loading big bore stuff like .58 and over.  However, the more I read and hunt around, the more smaller caliber original smooth rifles I hear about.  I understand the bigger bores can go both ways with shot or ball but what is the deal with .40 and below smooth rifles.

It is my understanding that there was a gentleman back in the 70's or so that won matches regularly on the covered rang at Friendship shooting a smooth rifle in rifle matches.... perhaps I have this wrong but then I am getting old....

What does everyone have to say or think......

Just interested. 

[rich pierce]

I too am curious. I’m thinking a small caliber smooth rifle’s utility would be mostly limited to smooth rifle match shooting, since it’s unlikely to shoot shot as well as a larger caliber smooth rifle or shoot round ball as well as a small caliber rifle.

[stubshaft]

I can see where one could be made by boring out a worn barrel and still being able to hunt.  But with the exception of match shooting I do not see any inherent advantage to making one from scratch.

[Huntschool]

I too am curious. I’m thinking a small caliber smooth rifle’s utility would be mostly limited to smooth rifle match shooting, since it’s unlikely to shoot shot as well as a larger caliber smooth rifle or shoot round ball as well as a small caliber rifle.

Rich:

I am not sure that the small smooth rifles would shoot worse then a large caliber smooth rifle other then big bores make bigger holes.....

Thus my question.....

[rich pierce]

Right, Bruce. My thinking:

Big bore smooth rifle .54 and up
Kills big game up to 50-60 yards with round ball.
Kills small game with birdshot to 25 yards.
Can be used in smooth rifle match shooting and knocks silhouettes  hard.
Uses a lot of lead and powder.


Small caliber smooth rifle .45 and under:
Probably not legal for big game with round ball.
Probably kills cottontail rabbits with shot but them squirrels and turkeys are tough.
Uses little powder and ball.
Ok for smooth rifle matches but not much of a silhouette slammer.

[Huntschool]

rich pierce:

You are right on the silhouettes.....  LOL

I am not sure about the regulations regarding rifling for deer here in IL. I don't think they are specific other then caliber and most of the CPO's don't know the difference between a .40 and ,45 any way.

I had my hands on an original many years ago, before I understood what I had,  that was a totally shot out..32 cal.  I goofed around with it and it would shoot lights out to 25 yards.  Was living around Mt Vernon then and kill the heck out of tree rats with it.  Head shots from a steady tree rest.

I would also contend that the big bores can be made to shoot better then most think.  I have a .62 with a 30+ year old 43" Getz Golden age swamped octagon barrel in the works....  I guess I'll see....

[Pukka Bundook]

Huntschool,

An interesting thread and questions you raise.

Re accuracy,   I think the small calibre smooth -bore needs more powder to ball than a heavier ball does, as the light ball does not 'set up'  as well when fired.
I am thinking of the Olympic smooth pistol and long gun results here, where most are small bore and the targets shot would put many rifled arms to shame, but see no reason why a smooth rifle of small bore should not shoot well to 50 nor 75 yards at least.   After all, small -bore rifles do not shoot as well at 100 very often, as do the larger calibres.   (say comparing a .32-.36 and a .50) 
If I had a  .40 smooth rifle, I'd feed it 70 -80 grs of powder, so as an old mate says, "the ball gets to the 10  ring before it realises it was shot out of a smooth bore!.

When playing with a musket of .760" bore, firing a .750 ball with a wad and no patch, (125 grs 2F)  Recovered balls showed a definite equator where they had expanded to fill the bore.
To get the same to happen with a light ball would take a decent amount of powder and no small charge will do it.

Please pardon the rambling.
R.

[alacran]

Look up NMLRA records for sighted smooth bore matches.  Though there are no caliber restrictions, as I understand it those that shoot it, shoot small bore calibers. You will be surprised by those records.

[Pukka Bundook]

Kind of what I was saying above, Alacran.   The small bore smooth  often do Incredibly well..

[bob in the woods]

Looking at this from a historical and practical stand point, I don't imagine small game being shot at much past 25 yards or so. With shot, a .40 or 45 smoothbore is perfectly adequate. [ Think .410 ]   With a round ball, I've found these small bores to shoot extremely well at these short distances...hard to tell the difference from a rifle at 25 yards and less .

[Huntschool]

I don't have a small caliber smooth rifle planned but I would like to build one just for grins.  Using a top of the line barrel I would think even 50 yds. would be very doable for group with the right loads.

alacran:  Could you point me towards those NMLRA records.....  Thanks

[Daryl]

I once had a smooth rifle with a .440" bore. I shot .433" balls from it with the normal denim I use/d in all my guns - .022" or so.

I was able to head should snowshoe hares with it, out to about 50 yards - maybe 40-45 was close to the truth. That was a VERY accurate

smooth bore.  It also shot shot well as I'd abraded in a jug choke using a brake cylinder hone.  It still shot round ball well and also broke me

10 straight winning our local club's black powder rendezvous trap shoot with it, against 10 and 12 bore using up to 2 oz. of shot. I was using

1/2oz # 7 1/2's and 45gr. 3F.

That said, perhaps this gun was an annomoly, as normally, the larger the bore of a smoothbore loaded with a snug load, the better the longer

range accuracy.

Thus, a 32 pounder has a longer accuracy range than a Brown Bess.

It is, or should be RELATIVE.

[bob in the woods]

The most accurate smoothbore I have ever owned [ load development required was minimal ]  was a 28 bore. It shot amazingly well with patched round balls, and was an absolute wonder with shot .  It performed more like a much larger bore in the field. A friend really really wanted it, and I sold it in a moment of weakness 

[alacran]

HUNTSCHOOL
You won't find it in the dismal NMLRA website.  The records are given in the shoot programs for the different shoots. Those can be downloaded in PDF form. The records are on the last pages of the program. I could not find the hard copy of the most recent Western Nationals shooot program I attended. So I Googled  2018 NMLRA Spring Shoot program.( https://nmlra.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/LO-RES_Spring-National-Shoot-Prog-18.pdf ) . That's how I got the PDF.  As far as I know the NMLRA. Doesnt have a compilation of records in one format. Each shoot has records independent of other shoots.

[Huntschool]

alacran:

Thanks for that.....  I think.... LOL  I almost went blind trying to read it.....

They sure don't have the-r "stuff" together on reporting do they.

[alacran]

Huntschool, it is not much better when you have the actual program in your hands. Very fine print.

[L. Akers]

The first rifle I made, 50-some years ago, was a .375 smooth bore.  I couldn't afford a rifled barrel at that time.  I shot a .370 ball wraped in .015 ticking and propelled by 55 gr. 3F.  I was at no disadvantage to rifled barrels out to at least 50 yds. and would often place in the 100 yd. matches.  I won my first competition medal at the Georgia State Shoot in 1969 with that rifle.  I shot a lot of squirrels with that gun, occasionally with 7-1/2 shot when hunting where it wasn't safe to use ball.  The secret to smooth bore accuracy is velocity, velocity, velocity.  The load I shot in that rifle would really crack!

[Pukka Bundook]

We're on the same page L. Akers!

[Huntschool]

I have suspected velocity was the key to tight groups on small bore stuff.....

Thanks Akers

[HAWKEN]

A British friend, on another forum, does quite well with a .45 caliber smooth rifle on squirrels and birds.  Keep yer powder dry……….robin 

[Daryl]

I have suspected velocity was the key to tight groups on small bore stuff.....

Thanks Akers

\
I expect the ball gets out further in a fairly straight line, before taking on a spin and veering off it's directed course.
I mentioned this to a friend at Hefley Creek, who then went on to hitting ALL of the 150 to 200yard targets at a non-scheduled
smooth bore competition one rainy afternoon.
His normal charge in the 20 bore, was 75gr. of either 2F or 3F, so he doubled it to 140gr. and hit them all with only a small amount of extra
elevation.

[Huntschool]

Daryl:

As you said "the sphere" (in an undistorted condition, will go pretty straight until physics catches up to it...  LOL.... God, I still hate physics....  LOL

I am beginning a build on a .62 smooth early VA gun with a swamped 30 year old Getz full octagon barrel.  It is going to be an interesting ride..... 

I have an AMM buddy who has a Steve Davis smooth gun in .69.  I rung some gongs at 100 yds with it years ago at an AMM camp.  Again, as you mentioned above, lots of powder and a bit of added elevation and I got lucky and hit center on the first shot......  sooooo.... we reloaded an I shot the same hold and I hit the darn thing 5 out of 5.....  Nice gun also, but what would you expect from Steve.

[Daryl]

I had a SxS 12 bore, that when fed 191gr. 2F (7 drams) along with a patched .682" hard ball, would ring a 10" steel plate offhand at 100yards,

4 in a row, right, left, right left, so I'm sure there is something to the velocity deal.

That gun ran only 1,550fps with that load from it's short 26" tubes. It did kick a bit.

[bob in the woods]

I believe that the small bore with resulting higher pressure/ velocities is the main resin that these guns at times can be surprisingly accurate. 

[Pukka Bundook]

I am sure you are right, Bob.