Best locks and triggers?

[northmn]

Just out of curiosity, lets say you have a match barrel of whatever brand on hand so forget the barrel, which also kind of dictates style.  If you were to build a fine match rifle for offhand, what would you pick for a lock and what is today's rage for double set triggers? If you prefer a single set or single trigger that's fine too, but what?  Most seem to prefer the Chambers white lightening vent insert.  I personally feel that the ignition system is as important as the barrel.

DP

[J. Talbert]

My crowd for years, has been a group of competitive but for the most part traditional flintlock shooters.  Allthough there are many variations, the most common combo with them is almost surely a Siler lock and Davis double set triggers.

If traditional target shooting is the game, that pair is hard to beat.  A well-tuned Siler lock, will shoot consistently all afternoon with one or two flints.  And I've shot numerous rifles with similarly well-tuned Davis triggers that hold as fine a set as I could imagine.

Jeff

[Leprechaun]

Since you're asking about the best and did not specify commercially assembled, the fastest lock that Larry Pletcher ever timed was an original Manton, if I'm not mistaken, even faster than a finely tuned siler. I believe it was a V pan lock. Castings for such a lock can be had from TRS and, I believe also Blackley's. The plate, hammer and frizzen can also be had from Dyson but you would have to make the internals from scratch. Such a lock, assembled and tuned by a very knowledgable locksmith would be a very good choice. Davis double set triggers can easily be made to let off with just a few ounces of pull and no creep (should you desire). Pretty hard to improve on that.

[bob in the woods]

I use mainly Chambers, or Davis locks and they are all pretty quick when tuned up, but for the dedicated target shooter, the most popular lock here is a tuned up small siler.  Claimed to be faster than the regular size siler.  Davis triggers are the norm.
Bob Miller

[northmn]

Some things have not changed a lot.   The small siler has been considered faster for years than the large one.  The Manton copies are somewhat made by L&R.  I have found their English rainproof to be fairly fast.  Silers may be popular due to conformance to style.

DP

[LRB]

  Siler, large or small, and davis triggers. Both need extra tuning however.

[Mike Brooks]

Never been a big fan of Siler locks.  I'd go with Chambers Late Ketland ( I know, they have siler internals  ) and a Davis set trigger.

[Don Getz]

If I am unconcerned about what style to use, I would go along with Mike on the Late Ketland...that is what I preferred
on my chunk guns.   They not only function well, have a roller frizzen, and a big pan, which equates to a larger area to
catch a spark.   On top of that, it is Chambers quality..........Don

[Ken G]

Here's another vote for the Chambers Late Ketland. 

[Dphariss]

Depending on the firearm desired....
All around for pure speed and reliability I would build a late Manton from castings. This would be great on late flint gun.
If I were buying a lock I would buy something with a toggle link to the tumbler.
Next would be a small Siler. Its very fast if set up right.
If you are after speed forget set triggers, they slow the process since the triggers also have a "lock time".
BUT it is often possible for many to shoot better with DST unless the lock and trigger are tuned for a very light pull.

Jarring the gun.
Large locks jar the gun more. I have a L&R "Manton/Bailes" on a pistol and while it needed some work it now has a really nice trigger and does not jar the pistol at all. I should have this shooting in a week or so if I stop killing time on web sites

Stiff springs, light parts = fast lock that moves the gun little if at all, proper tuning, if it needs it, puts the sparks in the pan. Good vent added to this makes a fast flintlock.
Stiff springs only break flints if the geometry is wrong.

Dan

[C Wallingford]

I vote for Chamber's Dale Johnson lock and Davis triggers.

[J.D.]

If we're talking the fastest, smoothest lock out of the box, the best  have seen is a Bob Roller version of L& R's Manton. Don't know how a Roller lock will jar a rifle shot off hand, but it sure was slick.

[Larry Pletcher]

The quickest non-original lock I have timed is an intensely modified Small Siler.  That one I have timed with a computer but do not have on slow motion video.  We will video it on Monday at Friendship.  It is very impressive. 

I had a chance to watch a number of these in slow motion in '07.  The ones that I thought stood out were a Roller, and the Late Ketland.  I did not time them with a computer.   

If originals count, put me down for an original Manton.  I timed Lynton McKensie's, and it still is the fastest lock I have timed.  (McKensie's Stoudenmayer was number 2, and the small Siler mentioned above is number 3.)

If you haven't seen these locks in slow motion here is the address for the locks done in '07.  If you will be at Friendship and want your lock videoed or just want to watch, we'll be doing this on Monday behind GunMakers' Hall.  We expect to give the lock owner a CD with the file of his lock.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/more-high-speed-video-from-friendship.php

Regards,
Pletch

[Ryan McNabb]

I've never seen anything better or more dependable than a good Chambers Early Ketland or Colonial Virginia, properly slicked and tuned, well inlet, with a properly inlet traditional single tricker.  I use double trickers when the style calls for it (hard to do much Virginia work without doubles) but I much prefer a single tricker.

[B Shipman]

Here's a bit of heresy. It's not the speed (within reason), but the consistency that matters.

[ChipK]

Dont forget a Chambers liner.  They make the a big difference as well.

[northmn]

My problem is that I prefer to use left handed locks as I shoot lefty due to a strong left master eye so I ahve been using tuned up L&R's.  Dpharsis reminded of one  I had to do a lot of tuning on. A "Durrs Egg" because it would break an English flint in 2-4 cycles. I built the gun for another person so had little first hand experience with it, but he was very happy with the combination.  I would think the rollers and stirrup arangement would be best. I agree a lot with Bill Shipman on consistancy.  As to set triggers, most of the winners I have seen use them.  One person shot very well with a single set.  I have a rifle with that setup that shoots well for me but it was a cheaper one and I would not really rcommend it. 

DP

[Larry Pletcher]

I also agree with Mr. Shipman's comment about the importance of consistency.  When timing locks I usually do a spreadsheet on each that includes standard deviation.  Often when a lock is tuned well and is fast, it is also consistent.   I suspect that the tuning steps that produce a fast lock will also improve consistency.

Another thought is that the shooter who manages his lock, vent, flint edge well, will have more consistent ignition.  Perhaps the biggest variable to consistency is the shooter's skill in knowing his lock and managing in well.

Regards,
Pletch

[erdillonjr]

 The best locks I have found are Homer Sales compitition locks. They use chambers parts and have a bushed tumbler and a roller frizen. Super fast. Chambers white lightning touch hole and Davis triggers and you have a great rifle. Ed

[Larry Pletcher]

The best locks I have found are Homer Sales compitition locks. They use chambers parts and have a bushed tumbler and a roller frizen. Super fast. Chambers white lightning touch hole and Davis triggers and you have a great rifle. Ed

The intensely modified small Siler that I talked about above is a Homer Sales, I believe.
Regards,
Pletch

[David Price]

I think that B Shipman hit the nail on the head.  Years ago I had a rifle that I could convert to caplock or flintlock.  I shot consistently the same score shooting the same rifle with either lock.  I think that once you conquer the art of shooting the flintlock rifle you will shoot better with anything that you shoot.

Having said that,  since Larry has shown us how to prime the pan and what to prime with, I follow his instructions explicitly.  I don't know if it will help, but it certainly can't hurt.

Larry,  looking forward to doing that woods walk with you and your friend.

[Blackpowder Barbie]

The best locks I have found are Homer Sales compitition locks. They use chambers parts and have a bushed tumbler and a roller frizen. Super fast. Chambers white lightning touch hole and Davis triggers and you have a great rifle. Ed

The intensely modified small Siler that I talked about above is a Homer Sales, I believe.
Regards,
Pletch

Well, up 'til now we figured the Late Ketland to be about the quickest (with agreement kept in mind on Bill's consitatency comment).  However, LC Rice delivered a batch of deluxe Siler's to us this week to take to Friendship that he seems to believe maybe even faster then the Late Ketlands.  As he says they are 'slicker than damnit.'  So needless to say I've set one aside for Larry to run through his video trials at Friendship next week!! 

[Larry Pletcher]

Well, up 'til now we figured the Late Ketland to be about the quickest (with agreement kept in mind on Bill's consitatency comment).  However, LC Rice delivered a batch of deluxe Siler's to us this week to take to Friendship that he seems to believe maybe even faster then the Late Ketlands.  As he says they are 'slicker than damnit.'  So needless to say I've set one aside for Larry to run through his video trials at Friendship next week!! 

Barbie,
Glad to hear it.  I'll have Sam Everly's ball bearing  Deluxe Siler with me too.  BTW, over a large number of trials Lowell Gard's Late Ketland was most impressive.  In '07 we videoed trial 1, trial 11, trial 21, trial 31 etc until we got over 60 flint strikes.  That late Ketland of his never missed a beat.  I was most impressed.

Regards,
Pletch

[t.caster]

I still hold out that the small Bailles/Manton with Davis triggers I put on my son's LR in 1990 is the quickest/most consistant lock I ever used. Next best would be the Deluxe Siler on my current Beck rifle, using W.Cain single set tricker.
Yes, it all comes down to how well they are tuned and managed while shooting.
I have heard other local builders rave about Chambers Ketland lock, but I haven't used it myself.... yet.

[northmn]

I am thinking that style might be a factor.  The English style rainproof locks were a late flint period innovation.  It sound like the Silers are getting tuned to try to match that level of performance and still maintain a reasonable adherence to style.  One would not put a Durs Egg or an Ashmore on a Dickert rifle.

DP