Lead Free PRB

[ltdann]

Hey folks, need some info.

I hunt in CA where lead-free is king and have been contemplating using my .54 to hunt deer next season.  The only lead-free ball available is ITX, which is pretty expensive and I'm told VERY hard and difficult to load.  It's some kind of pressed metal dust (frangible) with a belly band.  Other members here have here have hunted with it and they say that if you dry-ball one, you'll you have to unbreech because a screw won't go into it.  That makes me nervous.

Rotometals is experimenting with lead-free bullet casting material and they are offering ingots of 88% bismuth and 12% tin with Brinnell hardnes of 19.3.  It weighs about 30% less than lead so a .54 PRB would weigh around 161 grains, just slightly less than a lead .50.  I believe that's enough weight for these CA deer.  Interstingly enough, this metal combo is on the states "approved" list.

I've never cast my own so a brinnell hardness of 19.3 doesn't really mean anything to me.

Before I invest in equipment and start experimenting with this stuff I'm reaching out to you all.

  1) Would I be able to get an extractor screw into this hardness of ball if I dry ball?  (at a public range, with all the distractions, this happens more than I'd like to admit)

  2) My barrel is a rice 54 1:66 so would this ball deform enough to engage the rifling?

  3) Will this hardess damage my rifling?

This last season I smacked an absolutely stunning 5x4 @ 55 yards with a lead-free slug and it revitalized me to try and hunt with my flintlock.

Any help would be great,

Thanks Dan

[Hungry Horse]

Forget getting a ball screw into a hardened ball, use a CO2 unit to blow the load out.
 I though you were the member that said only one non lead bullet was approved for California, and casting your own wasn’t an option.
 If I were going to hunt with a hard non lead ball,( and had the option) I would use a undersized ball, and a thick patch. Basically a relatively loose load. This would at least make it likely a second shot could be loaded into a dirty barrel. I would also keep the range short, probably 75 yards or less.

  Hungry Horse

[rollingb]

I've never cast my own so a brinnell hardness of 19.3 doesn't really mean anything to me.

As a comparison, pure lead has a BHN of 5.

[ltdann]

Forget getting a ball screw into a hardened ball, use a CO2 unit to blow the load out.
 I though you were the member that said only one non lead bullet was approved for California, and casting your own wasn’t an option.
 If I were going to hunt with a hard non lead ball,( and had the option) I would use a undersized ball, and a thick patch. Basically a relatively loose load. This would at least make it likely a second shot could be loaded into a dirty barrel. I would also keep the range short, probably 75 yards or less.

  Hungry Horse

Thats right, ITX was the only one...till I stumbled onto this metal.  It's on the DFW list, color me suprised because it was the first thing I checked.

[Hungry Horse]

If you decide to cast some balls from this alloy you need to remember that unlike lead other metals expand a few thousandths after casting, so you need to consider this when guesstimating the optimum bullet diameter. This could equate to some rather unconventional bullet sizes for a standard bore size.

  Hungry Horse

[ltdann]

Would a ball with a hardness of 19.3  deform?  I mean just how hard or soft is that?  Obviously it's 4 times harder than pure lead, but what does that mean for a Flintlock shooter?

[Dobyns]

"Hardcast" rifle and pistol bullets 92-2-6 are typically 18bhn, and linotype 22bhn.  I've had 18bhn lead/tin/antimony expand at 1000fps, but can't say for sure how the bismuth/tin mix will act.  It won't hurt your barrel, but likely would be difficult to engage with a screw type ball puller.  This is one of those cases where the TC allen wrench removable liner seems like a good idea.

[smylee grouch]

If it were me ,I would consider a Nock style breech as you could always get up to 20+ grains of powder behind a dry ball to pop those hard balls out.

[Daryl]

From my meager experience, a .682" round ball of about 12 or 13 brinel will not expand will trashing a bull moose's  leg/shoulder - mind you, that ball had gone through a 3/8" thick rib on entrance,

then both lungs + muscle and fat & offside rib cage, before hitting and blowing out 1 1/2" of the off leg's bone before stopping on the hide.  0 expansion. Before hitting the moose, it had hit a few

light willows on the way to the moose. I would expect ZERO obturation during firing & no expansion from any ball harder that about brinel 10, no matter the animal hit.  Impact velocity would have

to be very high to elicit any expansion from such a hard projectile.

Rifle bores much larger than .54 do not generally develop very high muzzle speeds. Due to the poor ballistic shape of a round ball, they also slow down very quickly.

I chrono'd a .50 cal. rifle some time back, one of Taylor's - actually .42" bl. bl. Voluptuous Virginia was the rifle, and 85gr. of 2F produced 1,408fps IIRC.

[ltdann]

I got this back from an email I sent Rotometals:

Thanks for the email. So that alloy as a casting bullet is fairly new to us. Bismuth does expand when cooling but the tin lowers that ratio down. I don't have the exact number but its small. If you got a ball mold at .54 and casted them the small expansion should rise up in the gate of the mold and once solid you should be able to cut the gate and grid round like normal.

The labor to make such small balls is hard for me to justify making them but I know we have sold a fair amount of the alloy in ingots for this an other size purposes. If you plan on trying , Id love any feedback about how they turned out and shoot

You know, I think I'll try making some.  To be conservative, I'm thinking a .530 mold to allow for some expansion.  The Rice barrel likes .535 so a little expansion on a smaller mold might do the trick.  Time to go to the local thrift shop to find a cast iron pot and order a bullet mold.

Thanks Daryl, that personal experience using hard balls to hunt is just the kind of thing I was looking for.

Thanks all, I'll report back once I get some experience with this stuff.

[Daryl]

The .530" mould should be just fine, Dan, however if you could find one, a .526" mould might be better, then use an 11oz. to 14oz. denim patch. Some guys have better luck finding thin canvas, in th e.022" to .024" thicknesses.

The hardened balls I used on moose in the late 80's early 90's were in paper ctgs. thus for me, the full sized balls at .682" worked. I found the hard balls VERY difficult to load if in patches, until I got a Tanner

15 bore mould at .677". It casts .675"/.676" balls of hard lead. These, along with the paper ctg. hard balls shoot identically to the larger soft lead balls, using the same 12oz or 14oz. denim patches.

Our own bobinthewoods also uses paper ctgs. for hunting.   Dphar a tested these a while back, in his 16 bore and found them to strike identically to his patched round balls. This is

what I had found and wrote up a long time ago. Another old forum member, Roger, tested paper ctgs. for hunting and found them to work for him from .75 cal. right down to

.54 calibre.  Below that size, I think the breech pressures are too high for the wadded up paper beneath the ball, to seal off the bore.  Thus burning and inaccuracy resulted.

Your .60 cal. is perfect for this type of loading.   Computer paper, now available in almost ANY 'weight(thckness)' should make rolling up  ctg. that fit tightly in the rifling, an easy task.  The paper

should be marked by every land when loading.  Short starter not necessary as a choked up rod should be all that is necessary. We found if loaded this way, not loose as in

a musket, but tighter to the bore, they shot almost identically as patched round balls. Thus, no lube problems for up to 10 shots. Bob dips his paper ctgs. in lube. This also works and shoots

more cleanly as the lube softens the fouling left after shooting. If shooting 'tight'  paper ctg. loads, I NEVER had a paper ctg. burn or ignite.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You can easily extract a ball cast at 19 bhn, but your kit should consist of a bore riding guide that has a drill bit to make a pilot hole for the screw.  So, first drill a shallow hole in the ball, then replace with the screw tip, and turn it into the ball.  Don't go too deep.  There's a danger of going right through the ball, and remember that as you turn the screw into the ball, it will expand tightly in the bore and make extraction tough.
Regarding the ballistics of a bismuth/tin ball...your .54 cal ball is already way over 1/2" in diameter upon striking the deer.  Because the ball is lighter than pure lead, it will be travelling at a much higher velocity.  Two things result:  much flatter trajectory, and increased kinetic energy.  In theory, you should be just fine for deer with a .54 cal ball of around 160 grains.
Let us know.

[ltdann]

That's exactly the way I make the cartridges for my Hawken .50 

Thanks, Taylor, that was my thinking as well IRT velocity and weight.  Good tip on the drill bit.

These Blacktail Hybrides we have easily fall to 150 and smaller grain bullets, albeit at higher velocities.  I'm thinking that limiting my shots to 100 yds or less out to do the trick.  That's easy enough to do since they I rarely spot them further away in the thick sage and mazanita thickets.  I like getting up close and personal if I can do it.

Just this morning, I ordered up a .530 lee bullet mold and 3 lbs of ingots from Rotometals, both should arrive midweek and I'll probably be casting experimental balls next weekend.

Of course, my hunting buddies think I'm nuts to use a flintlock.  They all say "what about the fog?"  Well, I'm hoping that round faced English lock with the lip will pay dividends here.

I'll let everyone know after I have a range session.

[Pukka Bundook]

Whether this would be Kosha in CA I don't know, but has anyone tried balls made of pewter?
 
Old tankards are a dime a dozen in second hand /thrift stores.  It melts real easy, and newer pewter has no lead in it.  Seems pure tin.

[Robby]

I believe tin would be too light. Someone actually experimented with silver and determined it to be too light for any good and consistent accuracy and I believe tin is lighter than silver.
Robby

[ltdann]

I know nothing about metallurgy ....I've never cast round balls in my life.  This is an experiment and I only try it Rotometal was able to get their shot made with a similar formulation on the state "approved" list.  If this turns out to be a successful experiment,  I'll engage with Rotometal and the state to make sure it's all legal and above board before I try and hunt with it.  I think it's worth the effort as the entire state will be lead-free 1 July 19 and folks are gonna be surprised at how hard it is to find lead-free anything on the shelf.  There's going to be a lot of firearms retired because of that, including a bunch of blackpowder long guns.

[Sharpsman]

I'm guessing horses are gonna come back in vogue because all batteries are gonna have to go! Yep....golf clubs as well as been told they've got lead in those drivers!!

[ltdann]

I'm guessing horses are gonna come back in vogue because all batteries are gonna have to go! Yep....golf clubs as well as been told they've got lead in those drivers!!

Facts and rationality don't seem to come into play here.  It's the soccer mom mentality, it's bad so we gotta pass a law to protect the kids.   "it's for the children!" is common rallying cry.  Get used to it and better yet, prepare for it, because it's coming.

Out in CA, is was first inside the condor zone, lead free ammo needed, then it spread to the rest of the state.  Wheel weights went quietly and quickly, then fishing weights.  Next year on 1 July, there's going to be a lot of surprised hunters unable to buy lead free ammo anywhere.  CA alone, exceeds the total national production of lead free ammo, and that's not me saying it, that's  NSSF. 

I used to buy my stuff from Texas, online.   That's now illegal here, no internet purchase of ammo to a private citizen, has to be shipped to an licensed ammunition dealer, for a fee of course.

I fully expect them to go after outdoor shooting ranges next.   

And that my friends, is why I am experimenting with lead free round balls.   Not because  I want to, but because I have to.

[Goo]

This comment is directed at the leadership of the NMLRA I could be wrong but I don't think lead round balls fragment. As I understand it the problems are high power rifle bullets fragment into the body cavities of the large game animals. The discarded remains of field dressing piles are then consumed by scavengers who get lead poisoning.    Maybe I am not as experienced as other shooters but Round balls in my understanding do not fragment.     If there were requirements to recover these or at least bury gut piles it wouldn't be an issue?   Not trying to start anything just making suggestions.

[axelp]

I experimented with bismuth/tin back in 2009 just after this CA lead ban was voted in. My pour was 80/20 bismuth and tin. I tried more bismuth percentages and found them to crack and crumble too easily in a roundball size. My experimentation was with a 45 cal rifle and a .440 mould.

In my shooting tests, a bismuth tin roundball went thru a 3-4 inch piece of solid poplar. I was shooting at about 25 yards. The load was the same that I used for a .440 lead roundball.

I was the guy that stirred up TomBob Outdoors to make ITX back in 2009. I tested it and had Steve Chapman and Pletch test it too. It does work, but it does also have all of the limitations discussed above. I have a 50 cal rifle gun that shoots it pretty well but the barrel has very slow twist shallow rifling. And I am very careful when I load it, I use a .487 ITX ball with a greasy leather chamois for patch material. Works for me. It has great penetration ability but no expansion, as you would imagine from a harder than lead ball.

[Mike Brooks]

Ok, I'm wondering who checks to see if you're shooting bismuth or shooting lead. And, how they determine what the content of the ball is when they stop you in the field?

 I have also wondered the same thing if you're shooting ML shotguns around here (IA/IL) for waterfowl. another lead free situation..... If the DNR dude wants to check your flintlock fowling gun will he ask you to unload it or just examine your shot flask to see what's in it and assume that's what is in your barrel(s)?

 You'd think with as few folks who actually shoot a ML rifle or shotgun (especially a traditional/antique gun) for hunting they would exempt ML's from these lead free laws.
 it's all extremely annoying as well as ridiculous.

[Scota4570]

Ok, I'm wondering who checks to see if you're shooting bismuth or shooting lead. And, how they determine what the content of the ball is when they stop you in the field?

 I have also wondered the same thing if you're shooting ML shotguns around here (IA/IL) for waterfowl. another lead free situation..... If the DNR dude wants to check your flintlock fowling gun will he ask you to unload it or just examine your shot flask to see what's in it and assume that's what is in your barrel(s)?

 You'd think with as few folks who actually shoot a ML rifle or shotgun (especially a traditional/antique gun) for hunting they would exempt ML's from these lead free laws.
 it's all extremely annoying as well as ridiculous.

https://streamsystems.com/

I see some room for debate on lead shot in hard hunted areas with hard bottoms.  The other places I think it is a matter of convenience to make everyone lead free for easy enforcement.  In California, the total ban is clearly an anti hunting/ anti gun move.  I studied the detail of how the law was passed.  The scientific side was fabricated deeply flawed.  T study done by a environmentalist shill at UC Santa Cruz. .  The data was destroyed before it could be properly evaluated. 

[Pukka Bundook]

As Mike says.

We should get exemptions.   

Goo,
Pure lead has "High molecular cohesion", so yes, a ball will flatten right out, and mostly stay together.

[OldMtnMan]

I like my cure for Calif.

I moved to Colorado.

[48Bob]

And we have had so many people move to Colorado from California that I am afraid we will be headed down the same path before too long.  Trapping and bear hunting regulations are an example.