Author Topic: Heat treating spring stock  (Read 4418 times)

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2018, 12:05:07 AM »
I was watching a knife making video and the smith suggested lining up the work piece north/south when the blade blank was slowly cooling down so as to get the molecular make up in line and more stable. Is this true and if so should we be doing this when hardening and tempering springs?

Offline LRB

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2018, 03:44:08 AM »
Not true. No molecules in metal anyhow.

Offline LRB

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2018, 05:02:31 PM »
  Many smiths believe that quenching N & S prevents warp. It does not. The most common cause of warp is uneven cooling caused by the smith allowing side to side movement in the quench, or the blade being uneven in its proportions, such as being thicker on one side than the other. Another cause is a poor quench medium that allows an uneven vapor jacket around the blade when the hot blade goes into the quench. None of this has anything to do with so called molecular or grain alignment. Once high carbon steel is heated beyond non-magnetic, magnetic attraction will not return until it cools to around 400° when the actual hardening phase begins. In a window of heat range, between 900° and 400°, you can hand straighten any warp you might have, using protection obviously. Some steels such as 01, and A2 can be hand straightened under 400°, but not for but a few minutes. All in all, steel is unaffected by the earths magnetism as far as any internal alignments during it's cool down. One more point. Grain direction. Actual grain direction is only present in bar steel that has been rolled to size and shape at the mill. Once heated much above 1335°, grain shapes turn random without any set direction, and cannot be changed otherwise. What we call grain direction in reality is impurities, and micro voids in the metal that were directionally stretched along with the iron grains during the rolling process. They stay elongated, unaffected by heat, bordered by the random shaped iron grains, and add more strength to the bar especially if that bar will be formed in bends or radical arcs. If the bar is to be used as is, with no bends or radical curving, it is what it is. Other than proper heat treating, nothing else will improve it's qualities.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2018, 05:54:58 PM »
North-South-East or West. Sounds like some witchcraft and other Dark Ages
nonsense is involved in some of these procedures.The KISS principal is my
guide and it works for me.

Bob Roller

Offline LRB

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2018, 06:39:43 PM »
  That's often the case Bob, and I would add, if a process works to your satisfaction, then it works. It may not work for someone else, but if it works for you, that is all that counts.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2018, 09:30:08 PM »
  That's often the case Bob, and I would add, if a process works to your satisfaction, then it works. It may not work for someone else, but if it works for you, that is all that counts.

In my shop I have no other options. ;D

Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2018, 09:54:06 PM »
All in all, steel is unaffected by the earths magnetism as far as any internal alignments during it's cool down.
Ah, but what of the planets, stars, and their moons!!!
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2018, 10:12:08 PM »
All in all, steel is unaffected by the earths magnetism as far as any internal alignments during it's cool down.
Ah, but what of the planets, stars, and their moons!!!

The planets and stars and moons are focusing on the elusive Unobtanium.

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 03:05:19 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline LRB

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2018, 11:23:27 PM »
  Long ago, many people believed that sleeping at night in a northern head alignment would give a person the ability to know N S by instinct, and prevent them from getting lost. I can attest by experience, that is not so. Iron/steel turns non-magnetic at 1414°F. Magnetic attraction returns only when the iron/steel cools to below 400°F. That coincides with the formation of Martensite, which is the hard phase of steel. Martensite starts formation at the speed of sound, then continues to finish shortly after. Alloys can affect the time to finish. 10xx steels can be measured in seconds, while 01 will take minutes. But anyway, no, any magnetic pull from earth has no effect on quenching hot steel.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 11:42:20 PM by LRB »

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2018, 02:46:58 AM »
Since none of us have good temperature control, it wouold be well to use the most forgiving steel. That would be something in the 1070 -1075 carbon range.   1095 is great but does need a bit closer control of tempering temperature - AND HOW YOU GONNA QUENCH IT????????????

If you quench your plain carbon steel, 1075 or 1095, in water or brine it will get as hard as it can. That requires tempering somewhat higher than the melting point of lead. Which means in the temperature range where you cannot judge it by color.

Nice if you have accurate temperature control. Since almost no one has, well your V spring can break if it is too hard.

I would suggest quenching that steel in whatever type of oil works for you. I have only made a few mainsprings and those were 1/3 scale miniatures, quenched in water & given a not-very-good temper by eye with a torch. One of my sear springs was replaced by Paul Hamler, so said Wayne Driskill when I bought this rifle back some 38 years later.

When you quench these plain carbon steels in oil they do not get so hard as if they had been quenched in water. So you have less chance of ending up with a spring that is too hard. Those are the ones that break, sometimes just at rest there in the lock. Years ago Bill Roberts sent me one, maybe two, beautifully finished main springs that had done just that. He must have cleaned off the tears as they weren't rusted. Recall the last one was a piece of 1095 "donated" by Nicholson File.

Templesticks sound great to me. But I have personally never used them for heat treating, so have no practical opinions here.

Somewhere in the attic I have an old reference to quenching in ". . the urine of a three-year old goat fed only ferns for three days . . ." That would make your 1095 spring file-hard as it leaves the quench. So I can't recommend it.

Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2018, 05:13:47 AM »
If you are fortunate enough to have a small kiln with a pyrometer, which I am, it makes the tempering process much easier.  Not only does it make the process easier, but allows for a soak time, which I think helps.  There are some tiny enameling kilns on the market these days that are not that expensive, and they are plenty big enough for our springs.  My kiln is an old Nyecraft, so it was a bit more expensive, but there is really no need for that kind of expenditure unless you are planning on investment casting.

M. E. Pering

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2018, 06:49:33 AM »
Would this work?  Neycraft JFF 2000 Fiber furnace benchtop jewelry casting burnout kiln. I see one for sale locally.
Andover, Vermont

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2018, 08:43:01 PM »
I make most of my patchbox kick springs out of worn out hack saw blades. 
Taylor are the hacksaw blades that you use made totally of carbon steel only or have you also used the ones made out of bi-metal?  I don't think the heat treat would be the same for a total carbon steel hacksaw blade compared to a bi-metal blade?
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Heat treating spring stock
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2018, 09:47:00 PM »
Rich Pierce,

That is the exact model I have and use, so yes, that should work well for you.  You can still get replacement parts for them, too.

M. E. Pering