How many F's?

[JCKelly]

Whilst I mull over another order of Swiss powder I wonder, should I get FFg, "1-1/2F" or Fg?
I understand that Swiss is faster than GOEX or the Ancient du Pont I still have, and actually like a 19th Century sporting (round ball) powder. GOEX & du Pont, or so I understand, burn slower at a given granulation and are meant for cartridge rifles, or ml's using an elongated slug.
The old guy who wrote about such stuff, Ned Roberts, seemed to use Fg--yes, that coarse stuff--in a .36 cal. Now perhaps that was with a picket ball, not a round ball. Still I never, ever hear of anyone using Fg of any make these days, in a shoulder held firearm.
Modern shooters seem to burn nothing coarser than FFg, and frequently FFFg.
So, is that because the modern powder (not Swiss) burns slowly enough that a slightly finer grain is preferred?
Or is it because so many modern shooters think a load inadequate if it won't go lengthwise through a buffalo?

So my question:
Considering accuracy  in .40 thru .54 caliber round ball rifles, is there any information regarding granulation of a given powder vs accuracy?

[Leatherbelly]

Quote;
"So my question:
Considering accuracy  in .40 thru .54 caliber round ball rifles, is there any information regarding granulation of a given powder vs accuracy? "
 I'm not sure that there is a table for BP versus accuracy in different granulations. I just test them. I don't own a pistol anymore but when I did,I shot 3f Goex. In both rifle(.40) and smoothbore(.62) I shoot 2f Goex with very good results. I think you have to experiment. Your rifle or Smoothy may like the faster burning stuff or not.My understanding about Swiss powders is that they burn faster then Goex even in the same granulation equivalency eg.2f Swiss vs, 2f Goex. We can't get Swiss here in northern Canada so I can't tell you much about it. I would like to try it sometime tho.

[trentOH]

I bought a couple of pounds of Fg Goex for use in my Brown Bess, and the musket shoots it just fine.  However, my powder measures don't like those chunks of powder, as I find it takes an inordinate amount of time to shake loose the constantly plugged measures. Take a drinking glass and fill it with standard ice cubes. See through the glass how it looks. Now if you can, take an equivalent amount of crushed ice and put it in an identical glass. It fills the glass much differently.  Even when you tamp it down, as if you are crunching with a ramrod, the finer material settles in much more consistently.

[Don Getz]

I always remembered what the englishman, Lynton McKenzie used to say,  FF powder is for rifles and fowlers, FFF is for
pistols................Don

[hanshi]

I've always mostly used 3f in everything just to keep from have to make decisions.  Quite a few shooters do this.  I don't think there's a clear cut answer to this question.  It's probably more of an individual gun sort of thing rather than a bore thing.  Shooters on both sides of the fence claim the same amount of success.

[roundball]

Shooting a lot, I can't justify the cost of Swiss...in fact just this week I was elated to have been able to stop at a Goex distributor while traveling, and pick up a bulk case of 3F for $9.75/pound.

Also FWIW, over the years I've expanded the use of Goex 3F to include .40/.45/.50/.54/.56/.58/.62 calibers...3F even throws better shot patterns out of my smoothbores than 2F...gets the payload out of the bore faster too.
So I have a few left-over cans of 2F but when they're gone I have no plans to get any more...for my purposes Goex 3F is plenty fast, clean and accurate.

[Daryl]

I shoot 2f in the flint .40 in the summer, 3F in the winter - accuracy determines that decision. In the flint .45, 3F works perfectly during both seasons.  I burn 2F in the .69 as it seems to like that granulation, winter or summer.   So far, I'm running 2F in the .58 and it's OK with that decision.

In the 'flinters' if 3f was more accurate in both in the summer, I'd be using it in both as 2f causes fouling chunks that sometimes block the vent from the inside - this doesn't happen with 3F.  In the cap locked .58 and .69, no ingnition fouling occurrs.  In no guns of mine does 3F foul more nor less than 2F does.

I shoot FG in ctg. guns only - they seem to like it, so far (25 years of that sport).

[northmn]

When folks talk about burnt out nipples in long range ML match guns similar to the Pedersoli Gibbs, I wonder if 1F might be more forgiving?  We played with 1F in 12 ga shotguns shooting trap.  It worked, clays busted but wasn't worth keeping around for just that purpose.  Some claim the lower pressures pattern better.  Would depend on the load.  Kind of like using Red Dot and Blue Dot.

DP

[Daryl]

I think the 1F and 2F powders in a 12 bore might pattern better with choked guns, while 3F may be better with cylinder bored ones.  This is in connection with muzzle pressures, nothing else.

[Dphariss]

Whilst I mull over another order of Swiss powder I wonder, should I get FFg, "1-1/2F" or Fg?
I understand that Swiss is faster than GOEX or the Ancient du Pont I still have, and actually like a 19th Century sporting (round ball) powder. GOEX & du Pont, or so I understand, burn slower at a given granulation and are meant for cartridge rifles, or ml's using an elongated slug.
The old guy who wrote about such stuff, Ned Roberts, seemed to use Fg--yes, that coarse stuff--in a .36 cal. Now perhaps that was with a picket ball, not a round ball. Still I never, ever hear of anyone using Fg of any make these days, in a shoulder held firearm.
Modern shooters seem to burn nothing coarser than FFg, and frequently FFFg.
So, is that because the modern powder (not Swiss) burns slowly enough that a slightly finer grain is preferred?
Or is it because so many modern shooters think a load inadequate if it won't go lengthwise through a buffalo?

So my question:
Considering accuracy  in .40 thru .54 caliber round ball rifles, is there any information regarding granulation of a given powder vs accuracy?

Swiss is and C&H Diamond Grain was pretty fast powder. It was not slow burning by any means. Though they are/were dense powders and this slows the burn a little.
Dupont and Goex the same from my experience. There was not difference in the process in Moosic SFAIK. The new powder made at Minden is different in process and material, better KN03 now.

Roberts was shooting bullets SFAIK and this makes a difference, probably near double RB weight or more.
Some round ball rifles shoot better with FFFG regardless of caliber at least to 54-58 caliber. Though some rifles like FFG best.
1.5 f Swiss is very much like FFG just a slight difference (Buffalo Arms Co has a list of Swiss screen sizes) and some RB shooters have good luck with it.

I have tried 1.5 in my 54, 110 gr. but it would require a lot of front sight trimming to get it up to POA compared to 90 gr FFFG swiss so I did not pursue it. FFFG shoots very well in the rifle 6" or so at 200 if the wind does not blow and I follow the right process and pretty darned well even loaded as for hunting with an oiled patch.

You will have to test FFFG and FFG and perhaps 1.5. You can try Fg if you want. Another thing you need to remember is that the picket rifles often shoot heavy charges of powder. The current experimental load for my 40 shooting a 135 gr picket is 80 gr of FFG Swiss up from 70 previous. This is about the norm for picket rifles. Needs a platinum lined nipple.
In this case the load makes up part of the load inertia and will thus makes the load more consistent (some supposition but think its valid).
It was thought that slower powders, chemically (composition) not necessarily grain size, worked better with the picket probably a rifle or musket grind (milling time also effects burn rate) . This from Chapman's "The improved American Rifle" from the 1840s. But Roberts liked the fastest chemical burn rate "sporting" powders.
I do know that 75 grains of FFFG in my 50 with 48 twist Colerain barrels shows no fouling at the muzzle.
Similar for 120-150 gr of FFG in the .67 (16 bore). 10 year old +- Goex Cartridge fouled this rifle heavily at the muzzle, orange fouling/red berrys etc. But this is not as good as current production from what I am told.
Premium powders DO produce less fouling both when shooting and when cleaning up.
The velocity is often determined by the rifle. Some rifles like heavy charges. Most 54s shoot with about 100 gr of Goex FFFG. But I had a Sharon perc Hawken back about 1976 that needed 120 grains of FFFG G-O to shoot well.   Shot loose groups at 100 and 110 but sucked down to 2" or so with 120. Groups cut in 1/2 at least. I never tried coarse powder in round ball guns aside from trying FG in a Brown Bess Musketoon. It was pretty low velocity with the RB and FG, this was 1970s G-O/Goex.
Round balls just lack the inertia to work well with FG IMO though I am SURE there will be a rifle out there that will shoot FG best.

Yeah post too long but what the heck.
Dan

[Dan]

Don't know a lot about this part of BP shooting, but I asked a question of some folks on another site that about Swiss 1-1/2 Fg, as in, "Don't you all use anything else?"  Mostly not it seemed.  Big bores, little bores, cartridge or muzzle loader, it seemed to be the preferred fuel.  Well, it puzzled me as it goes against the gospel so to speak. One just did a write up on the .25-20 SS and used 1-1/2 Fg in that too......to good effect.

Not long after that I tried some 1-1/2 Fg in my picket rifle with round balls in lieu of the usual Goex 3F.  Shot better and cleaner with a lesser charge.  .38 caliber....and I don't know what to think about it at this point.     Well, Goex is cheaper, but....the gun shot a lot better with Swiss.  35 grains of powder equaled 40 grains of Goex on POI.

I did notice the difference in 1F or cannon grade (don't remember which) from Pletch's video awhile back.  Won't be putting that in the pan I assure you.

The Baffled Dan

[erdillonjr]

I use 3f Goex in everrything from my .36 to my .62 smooth bore. I even used it in my 1861 springfield for years while skirmishing. You have to carefully work up a load in the larger calibers. It burns much cleaner and I have found it is accurate in all calibers. ED

[Roger Fisher]

Well J.C we have to compare our ladies and see what they like best to produce in our desired manner!!

Depending on the lady some like the coarse stuff and some like the finer goods!!

Take her out to the firing line and compare the 2 and 3 f in her and she will let you know what she likes best.   

My offhand girls all like the 3 f ; but my ol chunk lady insists on the 2 f and gives me 'tighter' groups.  (all goex or schuetzen)

[Daryl]

 I generally work up loads in my rifles with both 3F and 2F.  I start with one powder, in this case, 3F and when running low, I can shift to 2F without having to re-sight or work up a new load. I used to shoot 3f with lighter 3 dram loads, then switch to 2F for the heavy loads for longer range shooting in the 14 bore rifle, but switched to 2f for both loadings to simplify not having to carry 2 horns or a horn and flask.

 At this time, I've gone through 11 pounds of 3F and 8 pounds of 2F - since October.  I still have 1 pound of 3f left for use in the .45 longrifle, but am currently shooting 2F in the .40, .58 and .69.

I find 2F requires 10 grs. more to get the same point of impact and same group size as the smaller amount of 3F - the velocities are almost identical.  A chronograph helps in this regard.

One can record the velocity given by the most accurate load of 3F, then work up to duplicate that speed with 2F (or visa/vis) and generally find the accuracy and point of impact to be the same. This saves shooting groups while working up to the same accuracy.

As LB noted, we're kinda stuck with GOEX - the only powder we can get here.

[Leatherbelly]

I always remembered what the englishman, Lynton McKenzie used to say,  FF powder is for rifles and fowlers, FFF is for
pistols................Don

I like his thinking,yep!