You get crud like this?

[Davemuzz]

I took my 50 cal flint pistol along with my 54 Cal Leman flint to the range today. Did some fun target shooting with both.

Now, from my 50 cal pistol, I was shooting 50gr. FFF using a Hornady Pa. Conical with no patch or bore button. The rifle was 85gr FFF PRB and the patch lube was TOTW mink oil.

This is the first time I've shot FFF from either the pistol or a rifle. However, when I cleaned both, I get these black kind of "crystal" chunks of crud out of each barrel. At first I though it was the mink oil, but I don't use any shooting the pistol.

I'm just trying to determine what or why I'm getting this. In shooting FF powder I've not seen this kind or amount before.

Dave

[hanshi]

Could be the fault of the 3F if you don't get crud from 2F.  But it's difficult to tell without a little more detail.

[Daryl]

When cleaning my BP gun. rifles, pistols or smoothbores, tens of thousands of shots all together, I have never seen this 'crystal' chunks of crud. sry

[Davemuzz]

Oh man....I thought I posted a pic of one of my cleaning patches. Here's the pic:

[Darkhorse]

I've had patches like that before through the years. Not many but enough to remember. I just always assumed it was unburnt powder grains mainly because they are black and vary in size. Too much lube I assume was the cause.

[B.Habermehl]

I’m with dark horse. I think your a bit heavy on lube. For hunting I generally use a thin card wad between my powder and patched ball for that reason. In my gun at least, it makes no difference in accuracy or point of impact. I use olive oil for patch lube. BJH

[Davemuzz]

I use olive oil for patch lube. BJH

Thanks gentlemen. I'll squeeze out as much lube as I can on the next session.

I'm just curious.....do you add any garlic with that olive oil?   

[Huntschool]

Yuck..... I am gonna agree with the others.... patch too wet. 

I have never used a card between my powder and my PRB as BJH mentioned.  I have always used "spit" patches and was cautious about how wet they were.  Hunting in the cold (that may be over now) I carried a small bottle of water with just a bit of alcohol mixed in to keep the patch from freezing.  Worked great.....  anti freeze

There was a patch product back years ago that Ox Yoke had that was a dry (Teflon ?) impregnated material.  I used that stuff as a first shot while deer hunting and kept two patches in my cheek for follow ups if needed.  Also, I dumped the load in the gun every day and cleaned the bore real good so the gun was clean to start with the next day.

[Maven]

Davemuzz, If temps. where you are are above freezing, you can use a liquid lube such as 1 Ballistol : 6 water. (Add 1 part 72% or 90% rubbing alcohol to it in freezing weather when you won't wait long between shots.)  Then use the soaked patches, just shy of dripping, with your preferred load.  While it doesn't eliminate fouling, it certainly keeps in in check.  If you prefer a "grease" lube, google Stumpy's Moose Snot, which is easy to make and very effective.  (You can use canola, olive, or peanut oil instead of the specified castor oil with no ill effects.)

[Daryl]

Water based lubes for hunting?

 Not for this child. Animal Oil or an animal grease only, for hunting.

[Maven]

Daryl, Did you miss the part where I said "when you don't have to wait long between shots"?  I wouldn't use or recommend a water-based lube for hunting either, but the subject was powder fouling, not hunting.

[hanshi]

Yeah, mink oil in the bush for me.  Hoppes does great at the range.

[bob in the woods]

What brand of powder is it ?  Were you getting slow ignition? 

[rich pierce]

A lot of weird things happen due to humidity and temperature, like red sulfur streaks and so on.  I’m not sure they have much significance.

[Daryl]

In thinking this over, trying to come up with a reason, I just don't know. Perhaps I've never seen it, is

I almost always remove the barrel for cleaning. When I don't, I fill the bore with water, vent plugged & let it sit for

10 minutes or so, then shove a patch down the bore hard to blast all the softened fouling out the vent. I do this

several times, then dry and oil. I have never seen that 'type' of 'fouling' on a patch.

Nothing is left in the bore after a shot goes off, except for dry or semi-dry fouling. Nothing with oil, that is for sure. My patches, whether

for target of hunting are WET.  Again, I have never seen this. 

As Rich said!

[Daryl]

Daryl, Did you miss the part where I said "when you don't have to wait long between shots"?  I wouldn't use or recommend a water-based lube for hunting either, but the subject was powder fouling, not hunting.

Yes- I saw that Paul, along with the notation about quick shooting. I know a fellow who used water based lubes for hunting here in Northern BC.

He always drew the load and cleaned, or fired it off at the end of the day and cleaned. After years of this, he 'grew' a ring of pits where the patched

ball sat on the powder.  I feel now, as he found out, that even one day's "sitting" is too much. The effects might be small for a while, but eventually,

rust-cancer will win - it certainly did in his .54.

[alacran]

How long is your pistol barrel? 50 grains of 3f is a lot in a pistol. It is not all going to burn in a short barrel, even a 12 inch barrel. That looks like unburned powder to me.

[alacran]

Sorry did't sink in that it was doing the same thing in your rifle.. That is still a very heavy load in a pistol.

[bob in the woods]

Giving this more thought, I have seen that type of crud before. You get that when firing powder only loads , common among historical reenactors.  A heavy load with too little resistance from the projectile in that short barrel [ low pressure ] could be contributing. 

[Davemuzz]

The powder is Goex FFF. The load of 50gr. The barrel is a 12" Dehass.  I chose using 50gr (Pistol). as a CVA document I have states the maximum load for a pistol is 60gr. FFF. I used 85gr. FFF in the long rifle.

In reading your post, I began to doubt myself if I had this crud in both my long rifle (which I used a mink oil dipped patch and round ball) and my pistol....which I use no patch as I shoot the Hornady Pa Conical. But I'm positive....well as positive as my 62yo grey matter works...that it was both. I've never had this kind of crud shooting Goex FF.

The accuracy and grouping of both rifle and pistol is very good, however I do find that in my pistol that I must swab more often using the FFF than I did using the FF powder. OTOH, I also find that the FFF loads are much more consistent than what the FF loads were.

I'm going to squeeze out as much lube from my patches as I possibly can before my next range trip. I just need to figure out how best to do that.

Dave

[rfd]

maybe the load is too much and what yer seeing in the fouling/cleaning patch is "unburnt".  also, have you tried swiss 3f ... there is a difference.

i see no need for liquid lubing.  semi-soft tallow/beeswax works in all climates just fine, and can be prelubed on patch strips or cut patches.

[Hungry Horse]

I think the pistol is definitely overloaded with a 50 grain charge, and a conical bullet. I would question the logic of using a conical in a single shot pistol, unless you just love recoil, and marginal accuracy. Fifty grains would be a fat charge in a pistol with a round ball, let alone a conical bullet. The rifle has me stumped, as to why it would behave in a similar manner. Could the weather on the day you shot have created the this? Was the weather drastically different than other times you shot both guns?
 I think I would try it all again on another day, but don’t judge it by the crud in the barrel of the pistol if the same load is used.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

If the barrel has a slow rifle barrel twist, 50gr. in the .50 might be necessary for accuracy.

As to burning all of it, no contest, especially with a conical.  The .44 (.45) cal 1847 Walker used 55gr.
and burned it all with round ball or conical. The favoured handgun for "running" buffalo. (chased and shot from horseback)

I was using 35gr. in my .45 18" twist with REAL bullets and getting very good accuracy (2") at 30yards off bags.

[flinchrocket]

I am thinking it must be the powder because you said you never had that problem with 2F and 3F should burn cleaner than 2.

[Davemuzz]

I honestly cannot recall the twist rate of my pistol's Dehass barrel. I've been shooting Hornady Pa. Conicals since I built the pistol in 2010. At the range, at 50 yards the 50gr of FFF got me 5" grouping. ...off a rest of course.



I cannot find any powder dealer in the Pittsburgh Pa. area that carries Swiss BP.

The rifle barrel is a 1-70 twist Green Mt.

That was my second "outing" with my just completed Leman, and the first time I've shot the .54 Cal Leman and the pistol at the same time.

When we get some better weather, (no rain) later this week I plan on making another range trip. I'll bring along my cleaning stuff, instead of just an alcohol patch that I usually use to swab out the barrel(s) after a few shots. I'll see what develops in the barrels after a few shots.

And I do thank you for your post and insight.

Dave