You get crud like this?

[Darkhorse]

The few times I've gotten crud like that I was shooting a .54 caliber rifle. It's been some time ago so I'm not sure of the rifle I was shooting it might have had a 1-66 twist, maybe a 1-56 twist. The powder was GOEX for sure as that's all I've ever shot and I have a supply of both 2f and 3f that I'm very satisfied with. It could have been either granulation as I've shot a lot of both. The round ball was .530 and the patch was .0175 pillow ticking. Can't begin to guess at the lube. Or the temp.  Or the humidity. Most likely my powder charge was 55 to 60 grains, though possibly a good bit higher if I was shooting a hunting load.
I just can't see anything that stands out as a distinct cause. So I'm standing by my original guess of too much lube.

[alacran]

Well if you aren't shooting patched round balls in the pistol then the crud is only happening in the rifle. You stated that you use no patch in your pistol.  Mr. De Hass makes excellent barrels. If you bought a pistol barrel from him it would have a twist rate suitable for pistol shooting.
85 grains of 3f is not a heavy load in a .54. The crud is probably powder that became over saturated with your lube.

[Frank]

You are shooting essentially a bareball in your pistol. That is the reason there. A loose patch and ball combo will also produce these results.

[alacran]

If he is not shooting a patch with his pistol, then the patches he is retrieving can only come from the rifle.

[Davemuzz]

BTW, & FWIW, I have retrieved several patches shot from the rifle. None of these patches have any baked on crud, nor do the patches show any signs of blowby, or burn thru.

[Daryl]

After having picked up what is likely thousands of fired patches, I have never seen anything but fairly clean patches, some with still some lube on them
others with cuts, holes, charred curled strips of what used to be cloth, but no crud, either. There is just too much heat and flame behind that patch, to
have any 'crud' on them.

Perhaps what you are thinking is crystals of fouling or unburnt powder, might simply be chunks of compressed fouling, normal in the breech area of a gun
that is not wiped out for a given number of shots - as we do - never all day do we wipe - it is not necessary. When we clean, the barrel comes off and gets
dunked in water which dissolves the fouling - likely why we never see this 'gunk'.

When I clean with the barrel on the stock, I plug the vent and fill the barrel with cold water - let it sit for 10 minutes or 15, then drive a patch down the barrel
blasting the dissolved fouling out the vent or nipple seat- thus, no "gunk".

If you think that is unburnt powder, try lighting it. I cannot for the life of me, understand how there could be unburnt powder inside the bore after firing the gun,
especially with a load that is likely developing over 12,000PSI.

[Davemuzz]

I thank all of your post for the input provided. It all helps me out.

I'm using the 50gr of FFF in the pistol to develop a hunting load. Recoil using 50gr. FFF is pretty substantial considering it's a BP load.

I'll keep you posted.

[Daryl]

Sounds like a suitable hunting load to me, with a patched round ball to, as long as you get the accuracy you need.
55 to 60gr. 3F in my .54 gives roughly 1,200fps with a 220gr. round ball. I'd call that suitable at close range.

[kentuckyrifleman]

This site is a wealth of information. I get that phenomenon with nearly every patch in my Bess and figured it was unburnt powder. Guess I need to stop using the pre-lubed yellow patches I've been using.

[Davemuzz]

Took 'em back out today. The .54 rifle and the .50 pistol. I put about ten rounds outta each one and upon cleaning, I had a few of those chunks....but much smaller and way less. I cut back on my lube so I'm pretty sure that's what it was. Today was a much dryer (less humidity), but still, I'm pretty certain it's me using to heavy a dip on the mink oil.

Accuracy however, is very good from both. Should be an interesting post Christmas Pa. Flintlock season!

[Daryl]

Dave- I would seriously try that 50 or 55gr. charge in 2F. You might be happier with the accuracy.

[John SMOthermon]

I see cleaning/ swab patches like that from time to time. 

I think , lube as well as weather conditions play a big part in  what we’re seeing.
 
If you only shoot in good / clear weather you most likely will never see this,
damp conditions and wet lubes are both contributing factors IMO

[pjmcdonald]

I humbly submit that what you are seeing on your cleaning patches is excessive baked fouling. First clue for me was when you mentioned rain. Had very similar cleaning patches a few weeks ago down here in south Mississippi. Cool, damp day. GOEX 3F powder. .54 cal Rice barrel. A loooong string of shots without cleaning (forgot my jag at home when I went to the range).

I suspect that the high humidity and cool temps caused condensation to quickly form in the barrel or around the vent immediately after each shot. Moisture plus carbon residue plus possibly a little unburnt powder, then the next load of powder which doesn’t completely burn, then add heat. Crystallized crud.

I’ve seen this a few times, mostly when humidity is getting up around 80-90%. I’ve seen it with mink oil, spit, ballistol/water, and prelube patches. I have only used GOEX, so that may be part of the problem too. But humidity seems to be the main culprit if I don’t wipe thoroughly after 3 to 5 shots.

Forgot to add .45, .50, and .54 cal rifles have all had this happen.

Paul

[Fowler610]

I tend to agree with Frank (post #27) that it may have something to do with the looseness of the patch/ball.  I like a looser fit--I shoot a .495 ball and .015 pillow ticking patch with TOW mink oil lube in my .50 flinter and I get the same kind of crud on the first couple of my cleaning patches.  Doesn't seem to hurt anything, though, because it wipes away and the barrel is good-to-go.  Never really gave it a second thought, just clean up and continue shooting.

[Mike from OK]

Water based lubes for hunting?

 Not for this child. Animal Oil or an animal grease only, for hunting.

I use spit patches for hunting.

But I have to qualify that statement with a little added info...

First off... I'm lazy. When I take my .32 to the woods to shoot squirrels I don't load it before setting out. If the little fellers aren't out doing their squirrel thing I go home, oil the machine, and put it away.

If the squirrels ARE out I simply load the gun (with a spit patch) aim, and fire.

This works well on squirrels. I rarely spook them away loading the gun. It won't work well for rabbits. And it wouldn't work worth a hoot for deer hunting with my fifty. Rabbits and deer necessitate the use of an actual lube.

(I know I was splitting hairs there. Lol)

Mike

[Daryl]

I can easily see spit working in the squirrel bush as Mike has noted.  Much like shooting a trail walk. Load and fire.

[OldMtnMan]

Does everybody heat up the Mink Oil and dip the patches in it? I would think that puts too much lube on the patches.

I sit down in front of the TV with clean dry patch material and apply the Mink Oil by hand. Just get a little on my thumb and rub it in one side of the patch material. No need to lube both sides. Then I load loading boards with it. It never seems to dry up.

[Daryl]

I heat the mink oil with a hot plate - not very hot, then pour it over a stack of patches, then squeeze them out to get rid (return to the can) of the excess.

Once lubed, they are kept in the normal tin - or small plastic box in the bag.  Using them for hunting is easy - using them for a trail walk, is a bit messy, but good for the fingers

in the winter time and is not as cold at handling water/alcohol wet patches.

[smylee grouch]

When I use tracks mink oil I don't want a lot of lube on my patches but want it IN my patches then squeeze the excess off the outside of the patch. This has always worked great if the rest of my load combo is as tight as it should be. Easy to load with no cleaning between shots on the guns that I shoot those types of combos in. 

[gemihur]

Triple Seven is apparently an gluconic acid (sugar-based) propellant that is far more efficient than blackpowder or Pyrodex, with corresponding increases in muzzle velocity.
Caramelization occurs upon ignition.
Now, I'm not knocking it.
I use it whenever a 209 primer is involved. I defer to good old black powder when #11 caps are dictated.
It's hot, it's fast, it's at least +10% pressure of Pyrodex and Goex so load accordingly.
I love it.

[Mike Brooks]

Triple Seven is apparently an gluconic acid (sugar-based) propellant that is far more efficient than blackpowder or Pyrodex, with corresponding increases in muzzle velocity.
Caramelization occurs upon ignition.
Now, I'm not knocking it.
I use it whenever a 209 primer is involved. I defer to good old black powder when #11 caps are dictated.
It's hot, it's fast, it's at least +10% pressure of Pyrodex and Goex so load accordingly.
I love it.

Doesn't work in a flint gun so what's the point? It's expensive as well. I found it more corrosive than BP too.

[OldMtnMan]

Triple Seven is apparently an gluconic acid (sugar-based) propellant that is far more efficient than blackpowder or Pyrodex, with corresponding increases in muzzle velocity.
Caramelization occurs upon ignition.
Now, I'm not knocking it.
I use it whenever a 209 primer is involved. I defer to good old black powder when #11 caps are dictated.
It's hot, it's fast, it's at least +10% pressure of Pyrodex and Goex so load accordingly.
I love it.

Swiss powder has the same power and doesn't have a crud ring like T7. Plus, it's traditional and works in flintlocks. T7 is just another modern $#@* powder.

[Daryl]

gemihur - pls read this, written just a short time ago, by a member here. He has done a short chemical analysis on T-7- & found, no not a sugar based propellent. Those, according to Bill, are weaker, generally.  Please note the highlighted text.

I at first thought they had some perchloate in the 777 when I looked at some of their papers on it.  So I broke it down in water and recrystalized all that dissolved.  No potassium perchlorate crystals.  Then the proof.  Out on my roofed over deck I flashed some of it on steel plates and brass plates and watched how the powder residue effected or attacked both.  On the steel plates there was thin surface rusting but not one pit.  On the brass plates there was discoloration and copper leaching but no pits.  So the two told me no perchlorate.  Then I sat down and mulled over all that I had looked at.  Then the dawning light.  The patent work was written up as if this 777 was simply a modification of Pyrodex.  As such they would not have to go through a lengthy and expensive trial as a new explosive composition.  So the comparison to the Pyrodex formulation was a money saving thing even though it was only remotely related to Pyrodex.  The sodium benzoate was replaced with sodium dinitro benzoate.  Highly reactive with charcoal so they did not need a perchlorate to speed up the burn rate. In the Pyrodex they needed the big slug of perchlorate because the reaction rates of the sodium benzoate would otherwise be too slow for a propellant powder.
Hodgdon has, or had, an employee who used to front for them on the various bp message boards.  I sometimes used him as a target for my caustic sense of humor.  He had once posted that the 777 name was the result of having run 777 batches in the modification of the Pyrodex formula.  Once I was able to stop laughing I pointed out that at OxyChem I was in a  job where I developed new PVC resins for different customers and if I took 777 attempts at modifying an existing resin I would have been out the door after 25 no go batches.
In any event.  The perchlorate was a no no in the 777 originally designed for the in-line actions shooting pistol bullets in sabots.  The perchlorate left minute crystals on the bore walls.  When you shoved a plastic sabot down the bore the sabots did not just push the crystals down.  The crystals would embed into the plastic which acted to increase it's diameter.  After about 2 or 3 rounds with Pyrodex in an in-line you could not get the next saboted bullet down on the charge.  You would then have to debreach and drive the thing back out the muzzle.  We used to have a guy here calling himself Hilljack.  I had him here and down on the range one evening when a guy and his wife showed up with two new inlines.  As he set up he bitched about the dirty unreliable bp flintlocks we were shooting.  He was using Pyrodex P pellets.  Then he could not get the third round down the bore.  So I loaned him cleaning supplies and a real ramrod to drive it back out the muzzle.  And all the while he is lecturing us on the evils of dirty unreliable ml rifles used black powder.  Neither Hilljack or I laughed at him.  But once back home and out on the deck with a few cold beers we could hardly contain ourselves.

Bill K.