Author Topic: English fowlers  (Read 2520 times)

Offline Robby

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English fowlers
« on: October 28, 2018, 11:07:13 PM »
I'm roughing in some parts on an English fowler project for later this winter. I am going to have a hump on the standing breech, did these grooves ever extent onto the actual barrel breech itself? I'm looking down the road at the engraving. I'm still looking for pictures of a fowler from this age that lights my fire so if anyone knows a source, please let me know. Thanks!!
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline smart dog

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2018, 02:49:43 AM »
Hi Robby,
No the groove ended with the standing breech the standing breech was higher than the barrel.  If you are serious about mid-18th century British guns you need to find a copy of Neal and Backs "Great British Gunmakers Messrs Griffin, Tow and Bailes".  Occasionally, a good gun from that period comes up for sale (one recently did at Morphy's Auctions) and you can see the details.  Below are photos of a very fine mid-18th century English fowler posted on this site back in 2009. It illustrates many of the features I describe in my tutorials.














dave
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 02:51:29 AM by smart dog »
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Offline Daryl

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2018, 03:07:32 AM »
That's beautiful, Dave. I can now see where A.Verner got his grooved, high breech from.




Daryl

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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2018, 04:21:21 AM »
Dave,

Who made that gun you show?

Silver -work looks like W'm Bailes...

Offline Monty59

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2018, 11:11:16 AM »
Hello, here I have two photos for you from my Ketland fowler.

Monty





Offline smart dog

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2018, 03:03:52 PM »
Hi Richard,
The name on the lock was reported to be "Tems" a maker who is absent from all of my references. The barrel is marked London, and in the original posts of the gun, the owner thought Birmingham proofs.  However, I strongly suspect the owner mistook private tower proofs for Birmingham given the likely mid-18th century date of the gun.  The hardware is Paktong, which is just naturally occurring German silver.  At the time it was a rare mysterious mineral from the orient and was more valuable than gold. Then some metallurgists in the early 19th century discovered it was just copper and nickel and it was produced cheaply, first in Germany, and later elsewhere.  The fowler was brought to the US from South Africa.  While it is not a Bailes, the wire work could certainly be by the same artist Bailes used.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline smart dog

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2018, 03:25:13 PM »
Hi,
Here is a Griffin fowler with Italian barrel that was recently sold at auction for $9500.  It was once part of Keith Neal's collection.
 










dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Robby

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2018, 05:00:22 PM »
Thank you for the pictures Dave and Monty!!!!! Those have the lines that I envision when I think of an English fowler, just beautiful. The wire inlay is pretty much out for this one, I have a French fowler I have been working at off and on when things slow down, that has a mile or two of wire in it and I'm kind of saturated. Maybe a tad if it absolutely requires it, maybe., but I would like to concentrate on the appropriate carving and engraving. Dave, I did find a copy of that book and it is on order, thanks. Monty, is it possible to get a lock side photo of your fowler?
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline Robby

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2018, 05:03:35 PM »
I do not plan to do a bench copy of any particular gun, I want to replicate something that could be identified as coming from a certain shop without injecting too much of my own imagination into it. I just want to get it right.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2018, 05:45:31 PM »
Dave,

Thanks for the information on gun one you showed above.
the proofs will most certainly be Tower private.

The name has me foxed if that is indeed what it says!
As for the wire -work, it has to me some distinct features which places it in all likelihood as done by the same hand as that used by Bailes.

Re the Griffin;
One of my favourites!     I have about worn the pictures out in GBG by merely Looking at it.  Not the greatest fan of Giffin's shell style, but copied it anyway on one I did.
The gun has certainly gone up in price since the Keith Neal sale.

Beautiful gun and thanks for showing it.   I would rest happy if I could ever find And afford such a piece! 

Robby,
As there were a lot more made at this time without wire inlay, you are on safe ground to leave it out.  I do look forward to your progress on this!   

Offline smart dog

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2018, 06:45:09 PM »
Hi Robby,
Here are two that I recently built with 2 originals on my bench the same time for inspiration and guidance:









dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Monty59

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2018, 10:09:47 PM »
Hello Robby, here the lock site of the Ketland fowler she is not in the best condition but I'm glad to have one !

Monty










Offline Robby

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2018, 10:28:29 PM »
Thank you so much Monty, much  appreciated!! Every little bit helps.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2018, 02:51:04 AM »
Really like that Griffin fowler - beautiful piece of good work and great craftsmanship.
Dave, love the engraving that you did on your fowlers - may have to send some metal your way!
I like the silver work on that first fowler, but way too fancy to take out hunting!  I think some of the ducks might get blinded from the reflections.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2018, 07:05:31 AM »
Craig,  Yes, the Griffin is lovely!

Dave,

Somehow I missed the overall shots of your silver wired gun;
How very similar are the lines to a Very early gun, by Richard Wilding, of Salop.




Offline Dave B

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2018, 07:43:31 AM »
Here are some shots from a fowler from the late Glenn Sutt. Not sure who the maker was. Maybe Dave Rase can chime in.
















Dave Blaisdell

Offline Robby

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2018, 01:00:09 AM »
Nice!!!! Thank you Dave B!!!
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline jerrywh

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 04:02:01 AM »
Smart dog.
   How do you tell the differebce between Paktong and sterling?  I never had the opportunity to see any Paktong in hand. They even made some barrel out of it.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline smart dog

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2018, 04:20:58 AM »
Hi Jerry,
Like German silver, it eventually has a pale yellow cast to it, which I am sure comes from the copper content. It doesn't tarnish or blacken like sterling and it does look different. It has a great story because it was thought to be this rare, mysterious silver metal from China that did not tarnish and it was highly valued.  When metallurgists discovered that it was just an alloy of nickle and copper and the Germans began making it cheaply the value of it plummeted.

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Monty59

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2018, 11:25:06 AM »
Hello, what smart dog says it is a kind of german silver with a bit yellow in if you polish it it looks like silver for some time. I have a nice pistol pair made in London by Mist & Co. with brass barrels and Paktong but it is different to german silver I think it is harder. Here a few pics from the Pistols.

Monty








Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: English fowlers
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2018, 05:15:05 PM »
Very nice pistols, Monty!

Very clean lines and elegant.