Author Topic: Wood Dynamics  (Read 3732 times)

bnail

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Wood Dynamics
« on: October 29, 2018, 05:36:05 AM »
I am trying to figure out the differences between the major Stock Woods. Specifically Cherry, Walnut and maple.  Was one wood more common than another? [Maple?] Is one easier to work than another?   Is any one wood more durable than any other?  [Walnut?]
I was surprised to see that Walnut fore end on the John Thomas Rifle. But i guess maple would not to have been as available in England. Do any of you folks have a favorite medium for carving on?
Thanks

Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2018, 07:16:04 AM »
I am prejudiced toward maple.  I find cherry to be on the bland side, though a beautiful furniture wood.  It is a little soft for my liking as well. 

The one walnut stock I was helping a guy with some 35+ years ago I found to be easily splintered... Maybe it was because our chisels weren't sharp though... Not sure.  Walnut also has a very open pore system throughout, and really needs filling, though this can be done with walnut sawdust and linseed oil applications.  But this makes it longer to finish.  Another beautiful furniture wood.  I am planning on using them both in a clock case I am in the process of planning.

For gunstock today, I am in the habit of using hard sugar maple.  Now it does have it's disadvantages as well.  The grain can suddenly change on you, and this is probably the most annoying thing about working with it.  It also can suffer from a lot of internal stresses, causing it to warp or bow as you work it.  I just inlet a barrel in a piece in fact, that did bow about 1/8" the last 6" of the muzzle.  Hopefully, when I get the rest of the wood off, it will come around, but even if it doesn't it is not a big deal.  I once had a stock of maple that bowed 5" (!) at the muzzle after the barrel inlet.  I gave up on that stock.  But sugar maple is tough and it is durable.  I have good luck carving it (as long as I keep my chisel razor sharp), as long as I keep in my mind the grain patterns, and each stock is different here... You just have to get to know your piece of wood.  And least importantly, we know maple was used in many, many historical guns, especially those from PA, but we know all three of these woods were used.

M. E. Pering

bnail

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2018, 03:26:51 PM »
Thanks. That helps out a lot! Had no idea a stock would bow like that if it was properly aclimated to its environment.
Which would be friendliest to a novice builder?

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2018, 03:51:12 PM »
I would say plain sugar maple or the same with moderate curl. I am working on a highly figured stock right now which is a nightmare to inlet, it chips out so easily I am doing more power tool stuff than working with my chisels.

On stock warping; I had a precarve sent back to me less the barrel, the forestock dog legged down about 3". A hot barrel, paint stripping heat gun and lots of zip ties brought the wood back where it was supposed to be.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2018, 04:31:03 PM »
Mostly from reading, 'cause I've only ever used  maple on (2) gunstocks and my experience with walnut and cherry is limited to knife handles, carved utensils, and the like:

Of US hardwoods, Sugar Maple is the densest and most durable of the three major stock woods - it carves well and is very strong, particularly the less-figured pieces. Red Maple is softer and doesn't carve as well, though there are some pretty hard, dense pieces out there. It tends to have a bit more dramatic figure, however. Pretty much every good gun-stock carver here will recommend plain-grained, dense Sugar Maple as the premium carving wood, I think. The only woods that might be better are pear and and apple, and they aren't generally used for gunstocks.

Black Walnut varies quite a bit, but tends to be lighter, coarser-grained, and more prone to splitting than maple, particularly sugar maple.

Cherry runs all over the map, from very soft and brash to so hard and dense it will hold an edge capable of cutting a finger.

One of the reasons why Southern rifles might have been plainer and developed differently than Pennsylvania rifles is because Sugar Maple doesn't grow down here, and accordingly the supply of stock wood that will take fine carving is much more restricted.

Now, European Walnut is quite different from Black Walnut, and works as well or better than Sugar Maple. That is why high-end European guns are generally made from walnut, and maple is pretty rare.
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2018, 05:24:29 PM »
Whether a stock will bow excessively is largely predictable before you begin a build. When a blank comes into my shop I square it up right away and then allow it to acclimatize in the shop for six months to a year plus. I will check it every few months to see if it has moved out of square, and if so, how much. If you already know what style of gun you'll make out of a blank you can cut out its profile, square it up, and see how it behaves over time. I have a nice walnut blank in the shop currently that I planned to work into a Fusil de Chasse but I don't believe it is going to lend itself to becoming one due its tendency of twisting along its length. It has been in the shop for two years now and I have squared it twice but it keeps moving, so I know that once that forearm becomes thin it will quite likely develop a major twist. My decision is to either go ahead and attempt a thin Fusil or do something else with the blank. These are the sorts of things you might encounter regardless of the species of wood you are dealing with, it is all part of understanding your specific blank, and wood in general, which comes with experience. When selecting a stock blank it is best to actually handle it, second best is trying to determine its quality from photographs. Heft the blank, does it feel heavy and dense? Look at the end grain, you want the growth rings fairly compact. Note how the figure runs through the wrist, ideally it flows nicely along the wrist but generally speaking it won't which is not necessarily a deal breaker. Eyeball its length, look for signs of cupping or twisting? If possible wet the stock with plain water so you can determine its overall figure. Speak to the seller and try and determine the blanks history since it was harvested. Most sellers have an interest in you becoming a repeat customer so will want to be helpful.

"I am trying to figure out the differences between the major Stock Woods. Specifically Cherry, Walnut and maple."

Good question; The bottom line is that each stock blank is going to have its own "personality." For instance I have encountered walnut that was far denser, harder, than any sugar maple. Two stock blanks of the same species can vary considerably in density, figure and workability. Generally speaking, for recreating american guns of the colonial era you can't go wrong with sugar maple providing it is dense enough to cut well. Red maple is, in my opinion, second, and not to be discounted, because it can work and have figure comparable to sugar maple. In my opinion, again, choosing between walnut and cherry is often a matter of aesthetics, and wanting to use the same species of wood for recreating an old gun you intend to emulate. You can find stock blanks of either species that will lend themselves to being worked reasonably well. Cherry is generally speaking softer than walnut, soft wood resists cutting cleanly and therefore does not lend itself to relief carving very well. Walnut is a fine stock making material, but it tends to have less remarkable figure. One can find solid, fairly easily worked, blanks in both species.

What you encounter, and this holds true for any wood species, but more so with red maple, ash, walnut and cherry, are blanks with both hard and soft areas, dry. splintery wood that resists cutting cleanly, or, often encountered with highly figured woods, wants to break out chunks in the most inconvenient areas. What you want is to choose blanks that appeal to you and show acceptable working qualities regardless of the species.

I hope that helps. Feel free to ask questions.

dave
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 08:38:16 PM by PPatch »
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2018, 05:31:46 PM »
This maybe does not apply here, but the best wood all around, is decent European walnut.
 Very stable, less liable to crack than maple, and dense, easy to work with.

Of course, as in all woods the best of any may be better than the worst of any other types if you know what I mean.

European walnut grown in CA for instance, is not close in quality to true European, and the European grown on hill -tops is much better on average than that grown at lower elevations.
Then of course what part of the tree is V important.

All best,
R.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2018, 05:48:56 PM »
I think Dave nails it up there with his post.

It's too easy/simple to say this species does this or that, but methinks within any one species,

assuming "proper stock-wood species selections" , they all tend to do different according to the stump they were removed from, how they grew (North side vs. South of the mtn. for density/consistency), how they were sawed (orientation), and what sort of grain is left in the blank. 

Some of us seek out the oldest blanks we can find on the notion that the more seasons a bit of wood has been through, the less movement is left in it.



totally different but in a similar vein--Nearly every time I mention cutting up a bunch of Osage Orange or Black Locust for firewood, someone tends to say "OH that's HARRRRD WOOD"  IT'LL burn up your saw/stove!"  or somesuch.  Baloney.  With a properly sharp chain, bar maintenance, and good technique it all cuts just like hardwoods should. Been doing it for many long years and will continue. It's just a matter of familiarity. Too bad I've cut more firewood than stockwood-will be working on that.  ::)


 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 05:53:46 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2018, 07:21:51 PM »
I always figured maple for American guns and walnut for European guns. Anything that is highly figured will be tough to work with. Maple and walnut have different good and bad points. I would not say that one is easier to work with than the other. Just different. European walnut is an entirely different species than black walnut and is a better wood for gun stocks. The high end stuff looks incredible. Main drawback to the European walnut is the price. It can get to be extremely expensive.

Offline Huntschool

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2018, 11:03:25 PM »
I think another point to consider is the difference we find in timber being cut today.  Back in the 60's when I was in the forestry portion of my education most of the walnut being cut here around Southernmost IL was cut for a veneer peeler factory over in IN.  What did not go there supposedly went to Japan.... ?????  Trying to find really heavy, tight walnut may well be a thing of the past unless you have some old trees on your property which you can cut and have custom handled.

I can remember seeing loads of 36" diameter plus stuff headed for IN.  Those trees were very old and very tight grain.  Todays walnut is being cut at a smaller diameter and has more open grain thus creating a softer less dense wood.  The forest genetics folks have supposedly created a "walnut super tree" which grows faster then the old native stuff.  They have done it with pine and cottonwood so I guess the walnut works.

I suspect much the same thing has existed with the maple that is/has been used for our gun stocks.

Just some thoughts.
Bruce A. Hering
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mupperm

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2018, 01:52:03 AM »
I've seen no mention of Ash,  how would that stack up to Maple?


Offline smallpatch

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2018, 03:24:40 AM »
Ash is hard as woodpecker lips.  It also chips out, is very hard/soft, tends to chip out, but when figured, absolutely beautiful.



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Offline Sawfiler

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2018, 03:51:28 AM »
I have worked ash and know it’s hardness. It’s not much worse than white oak. Has anybody seen any white oak stocked guns?  I’ve got some beautiful quarter sawn slabs that could be made into stocks. Would this be historically correct? The ray fleck could be incredible.
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Online rich pierce

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2018, 05:02:43 AM »
Oaks are ring porous and will soak water like a sponge in the end grain.

Strength, toughness excellent. Availability is excellent. Workability is ok. Stability with moisture, not so good.


Good stock woods have high workability, strength, resistance to splitting, and dimensional stability. These qualities and attractiveness make walnut, maple, and cherry the premier stock woods in America. Will others work?  Yes, but if they had the whole package they’d have been commonly used.
Andover, Vermont

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2018, 07:11:30 AM »
Well said Rich!!
In His grip,

Dane

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2018, 03:34:39 PM »
My way of thinking is that it takes so much time and effort to make a gun, why start with a less than suitable piece of wood ?   

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2018, 03:50:42 PM »
Muppern,

Ash would be grand for an early gun, or early European gun.   It was used quite a bit on such.   More rarely on later, say late 18th C and on.
I do have one though, made about 1810-1815 and stocked in ash.

Re oak;
Yes, not stable enough for stocks.  Very tough but it "walks" as we used to say.

Offline Sawfiler

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2018, 04:35:33 PM »
I would disagree that oak is not stable enough for a gunstock. I have some very dense white oak from a 300+ year old tree grown along a creek bank on our farm. It was over 50 inches at the butt. In fact we had to finish it with a crosscut saw - hence my avatar picture for this site. This oak would definitely be no less stable than ash for a gunstock. I was just curious if anyone had seen it used before. Faster grown oak might be different.
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2018, 04:42:08 PM »
Sawfiler,

Here I am at a disadvantage, as I know little of N American oaks, But English and European oaks are Extremely hard and long -lasting, will stand as timber -frames for houses for centuries without paint and not rot, yet, Move too much and are not stable enough for gun stocks.
They "walk" as we used to say, and it's a fact.

This is all I can say!
Best regards,
Richard.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2018, 06:50:14 PM »
Oak, if not violated on the back, will make an excellent self-bow.  I've made several, from red oak.  My best, was of Cherokee design, a slight "D" bow, wider back than yew of course and thinner.
Oft wondered what white oak would be like.

Ring Porous = early growth rings soft and lack strength, unlike hickory or Eastern ironwood (Ostrya or hop hornbeam) or horse apple (Osage).
This softness would be responsible for "wicking" moisture.
Daryl

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Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2018, 07:25:24 PM »
Has any of you ever built a rifle using curly hickory? Just wondering. I've got one roughed out. It's not an order so I don"t know when I'll ever get it done.
Bob
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2018, 07:38:16 PM »
  The problem here is most of you are influenced by the fact that you mostly built American long rifles or Hawkins.  For centuries the best gun makers have used different species of walnut for the top gun stock wood. Maple is a secondary choice and was seldom ever used before the colonial days in America if ever. Some Fruit wood was used in Europe but it moves a lot and the old guns show that.  Centuries of gun makers have decided the premier wood is walnut and it's different species.  Most of you will not pay $200.00 for a good piece of maple but some  modern gun makers today will pay as much as $2,000.00 for a high quality piece of Walnut.  The price alone settles the question in my opinion. The style of the gun is another determining factor. Ever see a $200,000.00 gun stocked in anything but high quality walnut? You ain't going too.
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Online rich pierce

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2018, 07:50:17 PM »
Has any of you ever built a rifle using curly hickory? Just wondering. I've got one roughed out. It's not an order so I don"t know when I'll ever get it done.
Bob

I tried and failed to stock a gun adequately in hickory. It is a devilish wood for inletting. It likes to splinter. This experience alone led me to stop exploration of non-traditional stock woods.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2018, 02:40:08 AM »
Back when I was still working on newer-type rifles, I did stock one in a customer's white oak.  It had been quarter-sawn, and made up into a pretty nice stock.  I have made several with Osage Orange (Bois d'arc) - it was difficult to work.  Most went into pistol grips.
I am currently working a nice curly piece of sugar maple.  A lot harder than walnut, and to my mind that makes it a lot better for tighter, more intricate work.  No heavy grain to fill, as you would get with most oak and walnut.  It is just a joy to work with, once I figured out that crazy grain that seems to change direction any time my back is turned!
Craig Wilcox
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Offline Goo

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Re: Wood Dynamics
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2018, 04:15:42 AM »
I have worked ash and know it’s hardness. It’s not much worse than white oak. Has anybody seen any white oak stocked guns?  I’ve got some beautiful quarter sawn slabs that could be made into stocks. Would this be historically correct? The ray fleck could be incredible.

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