Author Topic: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken  (Read 8317 times)

Offline redheart

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"Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« on: October 29, 2018, 10:07:04 PM »
Gents, :)

Do any of you know if the "Liver Eatin' Johnston" Hawken in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center Museum is a straight or slanted breech? The snail area appears quite different than the Carson & Bridger rifles; also,  I'd love to know the barrel width/length and if it's tapered or not?
Any advice on currently available parts that could be used or modified to build such a rifle would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any and all enlightenment on this subject.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 12:51:03 AM by redheart »

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston"
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2018, 12:01:18 AM »
I think you can look at it on there website. It's been a while but seems like the barrel is 1 1/8 x 30" or in that area.

Offline redheart

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston"
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2018, 12:41:17 AM »
I think you can look at it on there website. It's been a while but seems like the barrel is 1 1/8 x 30" or in that area.

Thanks Flinch. but they only show the length of the barrel as 31.25 inches measured from only God knows where, nothing about the width ,taper or if it's a slanted breech.
They also only show the right side of the rifle. :(
I did notice that the nosecap was iron, but I'd like to know if it's sheet metal or cast.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 12:53:12 AM by redheart »

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2018, 01:49:38 AM »
That is no doubt my favorite Hawken rifle. I had planned to build one based on Johnston's rifle, but haven't got around to it yet. Maybe that is where I got the 1 1/8 x 30" barrel, as I think that is the barrel I was going to use.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 04:51:26 AM by flinchrocket »

Offline Martin S.

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2018, 05:08:17 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures of this rifle?

I looked on the museum website, but I could not come up with any.  I'd like to see it.

I may have to go to Cody.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2018, 05:33:49 AM »
Gents, :)

Do any of you know if the "Liver Eatin' Johnston" Hawken in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center Museum is a straight or slanted breech? The snail area appears quite different than the Carson & Bridger rifles; also,  I'd love to know the barrel width/length and if it's tapered or not?
Any advice on currently available parts that could be used or modified to build such a rifle would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any and all enlightenment on this subject.

redheart,

The breech and snail on the "Liver-Eatin' Johnston" Hawken is essentially the same as on the Carson and Bridger Hawken rifles as is the butt plate and trigger guard.  By the time these rifles were built, Sam was using castings for these parts.

Liver-Eating Johnston Hawken lock and breech


I don't know if the barrel was tapered or not.  In practical terms, it doesn't make much difference.  Often the taper on original rifles, if any, is barely noticeable and a lot less than the typical 1⅛" at breech to 1" at muzzle produced by modern barrel makers.  If you were to take a 36" barrel that tapers 1⅛" at breech to 1" at muzzle and cut off 6", then it would be about 1.025" at the muzzle or a 1/10th of an inch less than a straight octagon.

Recommended parts (TOTW part numbers):

   Breech Plug & Tang:  PLUG-JB-18-3
   Lock:  LOCK-JB-R  modify hammer to suit
   Trigger Guard:  TG-HAWK-H-I
   Butt Plate:  BP-HAWK-JB-I  file the inside radius corner to a square and inside edge of the crescent filed back like Herb shows in link below

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42517.msg415035#msg415035
Phil Meek

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2018, 05:43:23 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures of this rifle?

I looked on the museum website, but I could not come up with any.  I'd like to see it.

I may have to go to Cody.
Put this # in the search box on their website, it should come up. ( 2000.14.1

Offline Martin S.

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2018, 05:58:37 AM »
Thank you.

Offline Herb

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2018, 06:42:35 AM »
Here are photos of Liver Eating's Hawken from Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III Western U.S."  I have his permission to copy this page.

The lock.  Sorry for the poor focus.

The breech does not look slanted to me.

I am making arrangements to go to the Cody Museum in two weeks to handle, measure and photograph in detail the Hawkens there.  I can give you the answer when I get back.  Herb
Herb

Offline Martin S.

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2018, 07:17:38 AM »
Herb, after you do that, are you going to write a book?

I would buy one.

Offline rsells

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2018, 08:14:14 AM »
Send me a note at rbpodge@twlakes.net and I will forward you the pictures I took of the rifle during my visit a few years back.   The rifle is in really good shape.
                                                                                            Roger Sells 

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2018, 04:49:43 PM »
Nice looking old Hawken.That hammer looks bad but it probably
came with the lock.The Davis version of the Carson lock would
work and maybe the hammer could be altered to look like this.

Bob Roller

Offline Herb

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2018, 06:01:57 PM »
Redheart, it doesn't matter if the breech is straight or slanted if you are building a copy.  There  ain't no 1 1/8" straight breech out here, and there ain't hardly no 1 1/8" slant breeches, either.  Muzzleloader Builder Supply was out the last I checked.  Jedediah Starr is out.  I know of no other except Track of the Wolf, and that 1 1/8" hooked breech has such a hump in the tang that it takes sever reshaping to match an original Hawken wrist shape.  You either heat the tang hump white-red and pound it flatter or grind off the hump and solder a reinforcement underneath to accommodate the tang bolt countersink.  The tail lifts easily to match the contour, but you got to get rid of that hump.

Most of the Hawken parts out there that I have used are badly shaped.  Mtn Meek addressed the buttplate.  That trigger guard has to have the loop bent more open to have the stud screw into the trigger plate at right angles.  The Ron Long trigger plate has to have the front end bent down to match the stock line, and if you are exact, the triggers are too long.  The entry pipe Track sells with their Hawken kits is wrong, and the correct one, RP-Hawk-TE-7-I, requires considerable reshaping.  Their rear sight for Jim Bridger is too low, matching the one for Kit Carson's rifle closely, which results in a very low front sight.  A better sight is their Large Hawken rear sight, saw off the front end.  Their shaped and inletted stocks are nowhere near close, though their Hawken Rifle Halfstock, not inlet for lock (or anything else, just barrel channel and ram rod hole) will work.  It is a half inch higher in the toe line, but it works OK for a 15/16" or 1" barrel (I just used both) and could be opened up for a 1 1/8" barrel.  Pecatonica made the 15/16" stock for me, not inlet, and I liked their work.  There is still a lot of work in cutting such stocks to the correct shape.

Oh, then there's the lock.  Track's Jim Bridger's Hawken lock is the correct one, but if cut for the snail, the hammer probably won't reach the nipple.  Then you heat the hammer white-red and lift the nose till it does.  The hammer may also have to be twisted to align with the nipple.  Better to get the lock not cut for snail and cut the plate yourself.  I have posted this procedure on here, and Taylor has, too.  Just click on my name, Herb, and a box comes up that includes "show posts by user".  Do that and about 37 pages of my stuff comes up including photos.  Probably everything you need in there.

The Bridger barrel is 33 1/8" ahead of the snail (I measured it up at Helena).  It measures 1.175 at the breech and 1.125 at the muzzle, and Carl Walker, GRRW's gunsmith, said "you can make that much difference with a file".  That is half the thickness of a dime per side in 33 1/8".  I got an exact copy from Oregon Gun Works, 7 lands, right length and thickness, and 1 in 48" twist.  I highly recommend them.  The nose cap is .8" long, longer than Track's.  I recommend MBS.  They have one for an 1 1/8" barrel, and 1", but if you have a tapered barrel, the size will be 1 1/16".  You either squeeze one down, or solder fillers in, or file a 1" one more open.

Martin, I have hundreds of photos of building close copies of the Bridger and Carson Hawkens and I plan to produce a How To instruction CD when I learn how to put those photos and text where I want them.  Be a while.

And thanks to Mtn Meek for his authoritative photos and comments.  He is a treasure on the subject of Hawkens!
Herb

Offline Martin S.

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2018, 06:06:20 PM »
Thanks Herb, your Hawken knowledge is amazing.

I look forward to buying your CD.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2018, 06:42:50 PM »
I have Jim Gordon's three book set and last evening checked out the Johnson rifle.  Looking at the off side, I would say that the breech is of the slant type.  It is almost identical to the Bridger Hawken on the previous page. Except that the barrel appears to me to be much larger than the Bridger rifle.  So if the Bridger rifle has a 1 1/8" AF dimension at the plug, the Johnson rifle is at least 1 3/16" - 1 1/4".  Just check out the name stamp on the top flat compared to the Bridger rifle.  It's the same stamp but is obviously on a much wider flat.  Also the above and below photos show how massive the rifle is through the breech end of the barrel.  That's probably why the Hawken shop made it so short.  If the barrel is tapered, and it looks like it to my eye, the taper is very minor.
What Herb has described about making available parts work, is right on the mark.  In order to replicate the originals, a student must be prepared to study the details to see the differences, and then figure out how to alter the parts to match, as best as possible within the limitations of the materials. The hump in the commercially available tangs is a great example.  On the originals, the tang begins to bend down immediately behind the tang's face, and is a smooth continuous curve.  Commercial tangs are flat for about 1 1/2" and then bend down.  If you employ the tang as is, your tang screw will end up being too close to the tang's face, and it is difficult to get it ninety degrees to the tang, and enter the trigger plate just forward of the guard's bow.  The guards are even worse.  One needs to reshape the bow, just as Herb has described, and also to get the spur up against the trigger plate while the rail is at the correct relationship to the bottom line of the stock.
Nose caps:   I bought my last pair from MBS at 1 1/8" and had the octagon welded up so I could file it out right.  They are nice castings though.
Triggers:  L & R makes triggers that can be altered to work.  The rear trigger needs straightening in the shoe, and buy the curved front trigger as the straight one has no shoe.  The curved front trigger with the shoe can be straightened out nicely to work well.
The original Hawken rifle has so much class, they deserve to be treated with all the attention you can provide.  And so far, I have only talked about the S. Hawken.  Jake's work is another story, as are the rifles that were compilation work of the brothers.
Perhaps Louis and Don will add to this.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline redheart

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2018, 08:51:44 PM »
Mtn Meek, Herb & D. Taylor,

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you !!!

I couldn't be more pleased with the info you have given to me and to all Hawken fans.
You sure put me in my place! I thought I could just order up the parts and start right in to whittlin on the stock.
Boy was I wrong! It's certainly quite a commitment if you intend to build a proper Hawken and yet you have made it seem possible.

I find it interesting that Herb thinks that it is a straight breech as I did and yet it seems unlikely for such a late rifle.
I can't wait until he has a chance to confirm which it is.

I also am pleased that D. Taylor commented on the barrel width because it always looked wider to me than any photo I'd seen of any other Hawken.
If Herb can get in and measure it it would be awesome!
The Cody Museum calls it a .56 caliber, but I suspect that they're measuring the coned muzzle.

I knew that Mtn Meek would know of all available parts and with Herb & D. Taylor could tell us how to weld, solder, file, and beat them into the proper shape.
This info saves tons of research and work.

I have one more question. I'd like to know if the L&R Hawken lock can be used for this project. The only thing I hate about the R.E. Davis Bridger lock in addition to the weird hammer is that the position of the sear spring and sear screw holes in the lock plate are also unlike 99% of the Hawkens I've seen. I know it is a small detail, but I usually can tell immediately in a photo if a Hawken is a copy if I can see the screws on the lockplate, The L&R lock screws are in the right position (I Think?). If I change the goofy hammer, Will this lock work? 

Also I think everyone would love it If Don would weigh in on this rifle, but I don't know if he's had a chance to examine it. There may not be much to add at this point.

Offline little joe

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2018, 09:44:39 PM »
What is the contact for Jim Gordons books?

Offline redheart

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2018, 10:14:13 PM »
What is the contact for Jim Gordons books?

I've always had to call Jim directly.
Last number I had for him was 505-982-9667 mountain time zone.
If you do a search for his books sometimes you can find them used.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 11:31:41 PM by redheart »

Offline 45-110

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2018, 10:25:46 PM »
Herb:
The top and bottom views of Johnson's stock seem to indicate that the wood lock panels are wider at the front than the rear. Is this a common feature of late Hawkens work?  Is the angle set up by tapering the lock plate bolster. On a tapered barrel, reversing the angle of the lockplate would require quite a bit of metal removal? Maybe  this reverse angle is just on the larger size barrels over 1 1/8" ?
I would like to know more.
thanks
kw

Offline Herb

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2018, 02:07:33 AM »
I don't know if the breech is slant or straight, just what it looks like to me.  Nor do I know of other straight breeches except that the Hawken Shop's 1" plug and tang comes in straight style, I was given one and just built it into my .54 H&H barreled Hawken.  The LEJ barrel is probably 1 .25 across the flats and of actual .56 caliber.  Gordon has a photo of the muzzle, which measures 2.56" across.  The bore measures 1.25" across the lands.  If the barrel is actually 1.25, then by proportion, 1.25 (actual barrel) is to 2.56 (photo) as X (unknown bore diameter) is to 1.25" (bore photo diameter).  This calculates to .61 bore diameter, but the bore is relieved at the muzzle for loading.  There is no crown.  If the LEJ barrel is 1 3/16", then the calculation is .58 at the muzzle, maybe what it really is.

The Davis lock plate is close in outline to the original Hawkens, though 4.85" long and the Bridger is 5.0 long.  The Davis (Jim Bridger) hammer has a 1.73" throw.  The L&R  ("Sam Hawken") has a 1.62" throw and is "malleable"  You might be able to switch hammers and adjust the throw of the LR hammer.  Or do as Taylor does and reshape the Davis hammer.

45-110, the lock panels are wider at front than rear on 1 1/8" and larger barrels, to allow for a slimmer wrist.  The lock bolster can be filed down, maybe only .040" or so at rear (I'd have to check) for a taper.  The Jim Bridger lock does not have a tapered bolster but achieved the taper by bending the tail of the lock plate in!  Thanks to Carl Walker for this information.

Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2018, 02:20:37 AM »
Here I am with the Bridger rifle in the Helena museum.  The hammer shows well.

Here is my copy at top with a Davis lock.

My copy at top, before I aged it to match the Bridger.

Herb

Offline Huntschool

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2018, 02:40:41 AM »
I was under the impression (conversations with Doc Carlson, Art Ressel, and I think T.K. Dawson way back in the day) that the heavier barreled guns all showed a rearward taper on the lock side and off side as a means to reduce the size going to the wrist also.....

Just sayin......
Bruce A. Hering
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Southeastern Illinois College
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CLA

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2018, 04:09:32 AM »
Some steel is filed away from the rear end of the lock plate bolster so that 1)  the panels will taper to create the proper wrist width, and 2)  so that the hammer will align with the nipple without having to bend it too far inward.  These images show the lock in relationship with the breech, simply held there by the pressure of the mainspring holding the hammer on the nipple.










...and here's a before and after of the Davis hammer shaped to more resemble those on original rifles.  I like the RE Davis hammer because there is enough metal there to shape it better, and it is long enough to reach the nipple.  The sear screw placement does not offend me.  Davis (Long) makes a great percussion lock.  Not as good as a Roller, but adequate.









....and the hammer cup needs to be cut deeper so that the hammer reaches around the fence and down onto the nipple seat.  Easy to do.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 04:11:22 AM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline redheart

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2018, 04:26:31 AM »
Thanks Taylor,

For showing us what 45-110 was getting at in regards to tapering the lock bolster to get a graceful transition from the lock panels to the grip. Now that I look back at photos it appears as if they did this most if not all of the time.
In addition there's no doubt that you turned that Davis hammer into something that belongs on a Hawken and I'm probably the only one who is bothered by the screw placement of that particular lock.
I've seen your Hawken builds and they don't take a back seat to anybody's.

Offline mountainman70

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Re: "Liver Eatin' Johnston's" Hawken
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2018, 05:37:34 AM »
HMMMMMMMMMMMM  !!! seems we have another Hawken pilgrim in the ranks ! Welcome,pilgrim,may you go far !!! Best regards, Dave F,'nuther Hawken pilgrim.  8) 8)