Author Topic: Finally brazed iron ramrod tips (Read 4594 times)

rich pierce · « **on:** October 30, 2018, 07:00:46 AM »

Most original longrifles pre-1800 seem to have had a ramrod with tapered, brazed sheet metal iron tips. Today several suppliers supply look-alike tapered steel tips that are lathe tuned, but I wanted the seam. I know Mark Elliott and a couple others make brazed ones like it’s no big deal but success has eluded me.

Tonight I got a repeatable technique. I used 0.025” sheet steel, cold formed and wrapped around a tapered mandrel with a slight overlapped seam. A butted seam did not work but I may try that approach again. To set it up for brazing, I cut a strip of 0.032” sheet brass about 1/8” wide and stuck it in the skinny business end of the sheet metal cone about 1/4” and then laid the length of the strip along the seam, tucking 1/4” into the wide end of the tapered sheet steel cone. So the brass strip was secured right tight against the seam. I heated it with it sitting on a fire brick base and backdrop till it was dull red then sprinkled borax along the seam. Then I hit it with all the heat my propane torch would give till it the flux and brass got wet and shiny and finally ran. Yes, very thin metal can be brazed with propane.

I let it cool then jammed some tapered sheet brass strips down into the tip, hoping to fill it with braze so it could be tapped for a worm. I heated it to red and jammed some flux down in there with a chopstick. I set it standing up, rigged with a wire support, and hit it with the heat again until it looked juicy again. Lo and behold, sure enough the tip had filled with braze for about 3/8”. I drilled and tapped for 8-32 and it’s good to go. To make sure it wasn’t a fluke I made another.

Will get some pix up tomorrow. It’s always fun when something finally works.

Curtis · « **Reply #1 on:** October 30, 2018, 08:43:11 AM »

Sounds like you hit a home-run, Rich! Looking forward to the photos.

Curtis

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** October 30, 2018, 02:43:30 PM »

Top one was first attempt, trying a butted seam. Note the brazing just fell through the gap toward the tip. Second attempt (middle) using a lapped seam was better and last one (bottom) was the winner. They looked all black and nasty after brazing- this is how they looked after filing.

Greg Pennell · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2018, 04:48:41 PM »

I’m gonna have to try that. I’ve got one of those little mapp/oxygen torches, should get plenty hot enough for light brazing.

Greg

msellers · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2018, 05:42:19 PM »

Quote from: g.pennell on October 30, 2018, 04:48:41 PM

I’m gonna have to try that. I’ve got one of those little mapp/oxygen torches, should get plenty hot enough for light brazing.

Greg

Those little mapp/oxy torches are awesome, wouldn't trade mine for almost anything. They are a bit temperamental about to much moving air, but can be overcome once you learn your torch.
Mike

rich pierce · « **Reply #5 on:** October 31, 2018, 03:34:36 AM »

Ok this is probably overkill from a brazing butcher but I’ve never seen brazing hints here and maybe this will get folks sharing how they do it. Here I cut out and cold form the ramrod tip. I use a piece of old file as a tool to close down the edges.

rich pierce · « **Reply #6 on:** October 31, 2018, 03:38:03 AM »

Next I set it up with a brass strip stuck up against the seam, heat it, flux it with borax, and heat till it runs.

j baby girl names unique

rich pierce · « **Reply #7 on:** October 31, 2018, 03:42:01 AM »

It’s gnarly oxidized with braze all over but cleans up ok. I pack some brass slivers down toward the tip and rig it up vertical. Heat, jam flux in there, then heat till brass starts to run out the tip a little. Clean everything up, drill and tap. Photos slightly out of sequence.

Please jump in with advice and how you braze in the forge or with a torch using brass strips or wire.

k gahagan · « **Reply #8 on:** October 31, 2018, 04:13:41 AM »

Rich, Very nice tips. You've done them almost exactly like I make mine. I had trouble with a butt seam as well until I realized you can leave no gap whatsoever or the brass will melt straight through. Once I was sure to get the seam tight I was ok. I did put a little bevel on both edges to allow for a little more braze. I use the small Mapp oxygen setup. Also I set in 1/4 rod about 3/8 long and can even tap it first and braze the whole deal at once

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #9 on:** October 31, 2018, 04:19:44 AM »

I butt (very tightly) my brazed ones and overlap my welded ones. I do my brazing in the forge. It is much easier that way. I just lay a piece of brass wire about 1/8" thick, coated with a thick borax solution, along the seam inside the tip. Then I just line up the tips, seam side down in the forge and heat it up. When I see the brass run, I turn off the gas and let everything cool. I usually have to drill out the tip.

The mandrel I use for forming my tips is an alignment tool that came in a pin punch set. That may be the secret sauce. That and a pattern for the cone of metal. I have different patterns for brazed and welded tips.

The welded ones are a real PITA and I usually only get a partial weld, but that is enough to hold it together. I use a very delicate (and short lived) mandrel to do the welding on an anvil placed right in front of the port on my forge.

rich pierce · « **Reply #10 on:** October 31, 2018, 04:26:21 AM »

Thanks Ken and Mark. I think I need a new mandrel that is less severely tapered. I need an old worn out rat tailed file.

I can’t imagine welding such thin sheet steel.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #11 on:** November 01, 2018, 12:05:48 AM »

Nice photo work, Rich.

I make a lapped seam by filing the inside edge to a taper. I don't bother tapering the outer edge 'til after it's been brazed. I fit a turned down nut in the end of the rod, but I like your idea of filling the end with brass.

rich pierce · « **Reply #12 on:** November 01, 2018, 12:58:08 AM »

Tempering colors set off the seam nicely.

elkhorne · « **Reply #13 on:** November 01, 2018, 03:25:30 AM »

Rich,
What were the dimensions of the pattern you cut out of the sheet steel? I might have missed it in the previous blogs but didn’t see it. This is very good and you did great in turning it into a great tutorial. Thanks for sharing!
elkhorne

rich pierce · « **Reply #14 on:** November 01, 2018, 06:23:27 AM »

To make a pattern for the sheet metal I just wrapped cereal box cardboard around the mandrel and kept trimming it till it fit with a tiny bit of overlap. I used 0.025” sheet stock cold rolled steel for the cone and realized it’s near impossible to get a near tight slip fit of the cold formed cone for me. So it’s kind of try and test to get a specific diameter at the butt, for me at least. What I want for most of my rods will be tips wider than 5/16” and less than 3/8” at the wide end, and about .275” at the point. It will slip under part of a front lock bolt that edges into the ramrod hole.

My first tapered mandrel is 2 and 3/4” long, .275” diameter at the thick end and tapers to .150” at the tip. This makes tips that are pretty pointy. The next mandrel I made is 3” long, .310” at the fat end and .230 at the tip. I like this better.

No lathe. The first mandrel was ground and hand filed from some 3/8” round agricultural spring steel. I made the recent one - the one used to make the fire-blued tip - from the shaft from an old augur bit for a brace drill. Mostly tapered on a grinder then filed.

Curtis · « **Reply #15 on:** November 01, 2018, 07:21:52 AM »

Thanks for all the info and photos Rich, it is all most helpful!

Curtis

bob in the woods · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2018, 02:59:02 PM »

I use my forge, and as said, a butted seam works if tight . I have a small mandrel for peaning the end closed. I also make brass tips the same way, only solder them. BTW, those are really nice looking tips .

rich pierce · « **Reply #17 on:** November 01, 2018, 05:25:27 PM »

I’d like to hear about folks’ setups for brazing buttplates and guards too, though many may weld instead.

RAT · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2018, 05:36:22 AM »

I make mine with tabs, like ramrod pipes.

Here I used 22 gauge steel. They are cut 3 1/2" x 1 1/2".

I made a tapered mandrel from 1/4" stainless steel. The small end is 3/16" in dia. and tapers to 1/4" about 3 " from the small end. I used my drill press as a poor man's lathe.

This photo shows the mandrel and the different stages of forming.

The tabs are bent and the center is being formed around the mandrel.

The small end is tapped 10-32... this is NOT for your cleaning jag.

This photo shows the parts for assembly.

1/2" long sections are cut from a 10-32 bolt. These sections are threaded into the small end of the tip.

Thin brass sheet is inserted between the tabs. The tabs are then riveted together with 17 gauge brads.

Small pieces of brass are placed into the large end and tamped down to the bolt at the small end. When these melt, they will braze the bolt into place.

An assembled tip.

Brazing in the forge. I place the tips on a piece of angle iron with the tabs down. The angle iron is inclined so the small end is sloped downward.

The brazed seam after the tabs has been cut off.

After dressing down with a file.

I then drill and tap the small end with an 8-tap.

Here's a finished tip on a 5/16" ramrod.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2018, 06:41:49 AM »

Quote from: rich pierce on November 01, 2018, 05:25:27 PM

I’d like to hear about folks’ setups for brazing buttplates and guards too, though many may weld instead.

I rivet my two piece butt pieces together with a finish nail as tight as I can get them. Then I fill the heel with borax and bits of scrap brass. I prop the butt piece up in my forge with the heel down and heat until I see the borax and a bit of the brass run through the seam. I turn off the gas and let the forge and butt piece cool down.

As to brazing grip rails to bows, I file fit them together as close as I can then rivet the pieces together as tight as I can with an appropriate size finish nail. I put a piece of brass shim stock between the two parts (nail through the shim stock). Usually I fold a piece of shim stock over to give me a little more thickness. Sometimes I will use two rivets if the parts want to move a lot on me. I then heat the joint to red hot and hammer the joint together a little tighter. Then it gets sprinkled with borax and put back in the forge until the brass melts. Once I see the brass run, I turn off the gas.

Nordnecker · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2019, 04:51:54 PM »

Inspired by this thread, I made (my first) one the other day. I'm sure a little luck was involved. After making a tapered ram rod, I found the 5/16 tip that I had planned on using just didn't suit. I had a piece of stove pipe that was about the right thickness. I cut a piece and tried to burn the paint off in the wood stove. That didn't work very well so I fired up the old forge and put it in there. I had a small tapered drift and used it to wrap the metal around. I just cut it after wrapping, very scientific and accurate, you know. I clamped it in the vice and filed a bevel on the overlapping piece of metal. Then reversed the overlap so it would be underneath.
I didn't know how to fill the end with brass without it running out so I tapered a piece of steel until it fit inside the tapered tip, cut it off about 3/8" long and jammed it in.
I dropped a little chunk of brass in the bottom, a little borax and another little strip by the seam and set it in the forge with the seam down. It was too high up and wasn't getting hot enough. I tried to move it a little deeper and it disapeared into the abyss.
Panicked, I tore the coal apart trying to find it. I got it out and rebilt the fire. After getting it going again, smaller and more concentrated, I set the piece in there and watched for the brass to melt.
It looked awful when it came out but seemed to be holding together. I cleaned it up and drilled and tapped the end. All went well.

Nowhwere near as pretty as Rich's, but I'm happy with it.

rich pierce · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2019, 07:28:47 PM »

That’ll do! Go back and heat it to blue and the brass will really shine.

elkhorne · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2019, 06:24:15 PM »

Rich, Rat and all the others that offered helpful comments,
You guys really out did yourselves this Tim to help us novices try some different techniques to make these tips. Now I have to go out and get some firebricks and other supplies to try which method works best for me. Thanks to all for the details that will help immensely.
elkhorne

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2019, 05:13:10 AM »

Inspired by this thread I too gave this a shot. I first made a brass rammer tip of my trade gun with solder, holy cow it worked mostly. I think it just might be usable. Ok I got this, WRONG!! Formed up a sheet steel tapered tube, like RAT showed. Formed it as perfectly tapered as any ever seen. Sandwiched my thin brass between the tabs, riveted it all together. Tapped the end of a 1/4-20 bolt, sprinkled borax in it along with some thin brass slivers. Heated it red. Brass not melted. Let it cool. Sprinkled some more borax, heated brighter red. Brass not melted. Let it cool. Rinse repeat, heated bright red for a longer period, OK brass looks melted. WRONG!! It fell apart when I cut the tab off. Maybe I'll try some thicker brass next time. I got plenty of thin sheet steel.

rich pierce · « **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2019, 05:58:35 AM »

It takes real bright orange color to melt the braze. Using the fire bricks really helps get that heat.

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Author Topic: Finally brazed iron ramrod tips (Read 4594 times)