Advice on stock shape

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
One of 3 guns I am working on simultaneously is this Chambers Little Fella's rifle.  I am trying to make it as early Reading as I can given the limitations of the kit.  It is almost ready for carving but something bugs me about the butt stock shape. I realize that I can only do so much because the kit determined 95% of the architecture but wonder if 1) the comb should be shortened even if it ends short of the rear scroll on the trigger guard, and 2) should the wrist be pinched or narrowed a little more right at the comb?  I think my main issue is the lock is too big.  I wish it was a small Siler rather than a large deluxe Siler (which you might notice I modified) but then the larger lock is a better performer.  Anyway, I would welcome your suggestions before I finish with the shaping.

dave

[Martin S.]

I have been considering this kit.

I don't like the cheek piece on the website, but I like yours.  The one on the website is like part of a curved circle, and I don't care for it.  Looks too much like a smile.

How did the kit cheek piece look before you modified it?  Like the website?  Or more like the one in your pics?

I am no expert, but I think your rifle looks good the way it is.

Also, what modifications did you make to your lock?

My daughter is 5'3", so I have been considering this kit for her.

[smart dog]

Hi Martin,
Thank you for looking and interest.  It is a nice little gun and would be perfect for your daughter.  The cheek piece was originally the half round you saw on Chambers website.  I scared the bejeezus out of my client by sending him a photo of me sawing away at the bottom of that cheek piece to square it up. 
 
It was almost as comical as when I painted a client's NE fowler stock black but that is another story.  I may do just as you suggest and leave it alone but I am anxious to hear more opinions.  I added metal to the tail of the lock to give it a fuller more rounded appearance and I reshaped the pan bridle. If you are thinking of the kit, you might want to read the thread in the link below that I posted.  It is ongoing.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/index.php?threads/building-a-chambers-little-fellas-rifle.110688/

dave

[smylee grouch]

My personal opinion, the wrist looks too short to me but I still like the gun and would consider one for my daughters or grand children.

[David Rase]

Dave,
I have not really studied and have not built a Reading style rifle so take these comments for what they are worth.  I think the comb is too rounded and the whole buttstock is too bulky.  I am sure you have done a bunch of research of originals so I would suggest that you go to the Contemporary Long Rifle blog and search Dodds.  There are several Dodds Reading style rifles and David was a master at capturing the Reading architecture.  My two cents worth.

David 

[PPatch]

Hi Dave;

I took the liberty of digitally moving the comb backwards a bit. First pix is your original, second is my quick modification.







Perhaps these will aid you in your decision.

dave

[fahnenschmied]

The lock doesn't look to large at all.  A smaller lock would look lost on it - to me. If anything, I'd knock the tang down more and thin the profile a little above the rear of the lock - but I know nothing of how this "school" of rifle is supposed to look.

[smylee grouch]

I also think the grip rail on that guard looks too short but like the longer wrist look.

[smallpatch]

Dave,
I think she looks a little fat over all.  Shape is good, just a little slim down?
You've seen the RCA #26 that I brought to Dixon's two years ago.  That's the only one I've built, but a good example.
Unfortunately, my Mac doesn't seem to want to give up the photos

[P.W.Berkuta]

I am by far no "expert" on this style of rifle but I think PPatch's rendering of the wrist is more pleasing to the eye. I also feel that the but stock area looks too "bulky" to my eye. Possibly reducing the comb height at the nose may help - just my thoughts .   

[smallpatch]

[rich pierce]

Where’s Chris Immel when we need him?  Early Reading rifles like RCA 21 and the next few were a little pregnant looking. A lot depends on how early this is.

From our museum
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16557.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=7831.0

There are more in the museum here.

This was from Dixon’s next to our tent.

[smart dog]

Hi,
This is great guys!  Thanks a bunch.  Early Reading guns, exemplified by RCA 20-22, are robust in the butt.  The width of the butt on this gun is determined by the wide buttplate, which is about 2" wide, and the wrist by the barrel and lock. Those are all full-sized components fitted to a gun with a 12 15/16" length of pull.  However, the comb can be thinned more, absolutely.  PPatch, that was really helpful.  I think I am going to shorten the comb based on your doctored photo. Dave Rase, the kit was designed by David Dodds I believe and he sure was the guy for early Reading guns.  Smylee, I don't like the guard either.  I agree that a longer handle of different shape would look better and I may be able to still change it if I could find the right guard that accommodates the set triggers.   Notice that I completely eliminated the machine inlet for the side plate and substituted a early Reading plate that I made rather than using the kit's which was a .generic English fowler style.  I am going to post this note and then follow up in a few minutes a few more photos.

dave     

[smart dog]

Hi,
Here are some more photos that might help.  I turned off my lamp so the photos show the baluster wrist, which may influence how bulky you thing the stock looks.  I also added a photo of the comb and the buttplate.
Rich, I am basing it on the earliest Reading guns in RCA #1 and the first gun in Dave Hansen's book.  The butt should be big, but the combs on those guns were not excessively bulky.  Folks, please add your opinions.  I will munch on all of them and see what works for this gun.  Keep in mind the the hardware is from the kit and although David Dodds did base the gun somewhat on Reading rifles, I don't know the provenance of his choices of trigger guard and buttplate.  They are not like the hardware on the early Reading guns that I have seen.
dave

[bgf]

I like ppatch's change to the wrist after looking at some others, but I think his re-rendering may make the nose of the comb too abrupt.  Going to be a neat little rifle, never knew Dodds designed that kit.  I didn't even know who he was until I saw one of his rifles in a museum and initially mistook it for an original several years ago.  After that he became a favorite.  Wish he was still with us, even if I never got to know him personally.

Well, that's more than I know about Readings!

[Goo]

Seems to me a question ratios  if you are questioning the length of the wrist and the comb is the cheek piece in the right spot?  Where would the tip of a “ little fellers “ nose end up?  Isnt the tip if the comb supposed to be even with tip of the nose.

[Acer Saccharum]

Proportionally, the butt looks a little large. Once stained, that appearance could completely disappear.

You could cut the comb back a little, and simultaneously lengthen the wrist. But be aware, as you are, knowing you, Dave, how you are about these things, that you could get into the buttplate extension.

So here you are teetering on the horns of a dilemma, but in reality, you could just finish the darned thing and it would be just fine.

[smart dog]

Thank you so much everyone!  You have all helped me.  I made some changes but I am heading south tomorrow for a Rev War event at Washington's Crossing State Park in NJ on Saturday.  I am going to work on the rifle at the event as an 18th century gunsmith.  I'll post pictures when I get back on Monday.   I filed down the top of the buttplate extension so profile lowers the comb.  Then I straightened the comb as much as I could and shortened it a tiny bit.  I also made the nose of the comb a bit less abrupt.  I thinned the wrist vertically a tiny bit at the end of the comb.  I am also going to file the bottom of the stock through the triggers a tiny bit.  There is some excess wood there so I won't need to file the trigger plate.  After I add the beaver tails and moldings to the lock panels and the lower butt stock border line, I think the impression will be quite a bit slimmer.  I do not like the trigger guard.  I wish I could find a guard like the one David Dodds used on his copy of RCA #22.  A problem is that the kit guard actually has a fairly long front extension so it is hard to find a guard that will cover it and fit over the triggers.  I don't even like the feel of the guard because it cramps my fingers and my hands are not large.  My client and friend is approaching 80 and has shoulder issues.  He is small in stature so the gun should fit him.  His medical issues prevent him from hefting a heavy gun, hence the Little Fella's rifle, but he is still an active and avid shooter, and re-enactor.  I need to get the gun done for him soon so he has time to enjoy it.

dave       

[thecapgunkid]

This is my favorite component set and I wonder if your grandaughter is going to notice the details before she moves on to a larger gun....IF she moves on to a larger gun.

I like the higher rail and changed the cheekpiece on all of 'em.

I hit my plateau of mediocrity a while ago, but three of the first five I built were Little Fellers.  They work like jets and are very pleasing to heft and shoot;

Top to bottom is mine, the first build I ever did and my sons.




That middle guy has no class, houses every mistake I've ever made, has had that hideous patchbox replaced, had the barrel replaced with a 20 ga smoothbore and shoots like the devil.  People ask me if it is an original...that's how bad it looks...

Go figure

[P.W.Berkuta]

Smart Dog - the changes you made did make a big difference to my eye . I also think the lighting change shows the rifle better. Please show us the completed rifle when done . I just might have to get me one of those kits.

[Jim Kibler]

I think your stock shape looks really nice.  The box lid looks a bit heavy to my eye, but I know some of the Berks guns were like this.

[PPatch]

Subtle changes Dave, but she looks better!

dave

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
Thanks to all of you that commented.  I considered all the advice and this is what I ended up with.  I cannot reshape things as much as I desire because it is a kit gun and the basic architecture is locked in by the kit maker.  I still am not a fan of the trigger guard but it will have to do.  Anyway, I almost finished the carving, which just needs a little clean up and some incised curves smoothed a little.  The Christian fish inlay was requested by the owner and I wanted to make it simple, rustic, but effective.  Don't worry about the orange color. As part of my whiskering procedure, I apply a light colored water-based stain.  I then scrape and sand it off and it shows me what still needs to be scraped and any residual scratches. It makes doing clean crisp work easier and faster.

dave

[Craig Wilcox]

Exceptionally nice job, Dave.  You have turned a somewhat mediocre kit into a thing of grace.  I believe your client will be well satisfied.

[A.Merrill]

   If the stock is scaled down shouldn't the hardware also be scaled down ?

   P.Patch, what program or app. did you use to change the wrist area ?    Al