Hawken Breech/Tang fit.

[redheart]

Gents,
I realize I'm a pest to bring up this topic again but I've not found this question being asked before.
I've just received a slanted breech/tang in the mail and it has blobs of steel in the tiniest least accessible corners of the mating surface in the tang.
If I could cut these blobs out of the way I think I can handle the rest with scrapers (D. Taylor style). I don't think I can get in there with scrapers.
Would it be the best move to just send it back and get another one. I realize I could cut the corners of the male surface on the breech plug, but "cutting corners" (Pun intended.) just doesn't seem like that's the way you guys would do it. If that's the way it's done I guess I'll just live with it.

[Bob Roller]

When the Hawken Shop was owned by Art Resell in St.Louis these plugs were
inspected for glitches in the casting and even then it took a bit of skill to mate
the tang and plug.I have seen and owned English hook breech rifles that were
so finely fitted it was hard to see the junction of the two pieces.Fine filing is
the key.Bill Large made hook breeches and I have refiled them to a snug fit.
Quality control and most importantly is the quality of the moulds.Don Brown
who revived the high quality Alex Henry rifles was the only one that ever got
it right with these cast parts. I have an antique Hawken hook breech that Art
Resell gave me in 1972 and it is nowhere near the quality it should be.It was
from the Gemmer Estate.
One thing more,these breech/tang combos should fit together so they can be
inletted as ONE piece.Rod England who has taken over the making and parts
for the Don Brown Henry fits these parts together like this and has set a high
standard that ought to be normal for all such breeches.

Bob Roller

[bama]

I doubt very seriously that if you sent it back and asked for another breech that the next one would be any better. As Bob said, the problem is probably in the mold and the next set would come from that same mold and more than likely have the same flaws. If you don't feel comfortable in taking files to these parts to make them work then send the parts back and pick another project. Hawken breeches are just one of the many challenges in building this style rifle. These rifles appear to be a fairly simple gun to build but to do them right they are not a simple gun to build. Just read some of Herb's post about these rifles and his comments about the quality of the parts that are available. It won't take long to realize that there is a log of fabrication work involved in this type of build.

[sqrldog]

While totally dependant on breech size and style of Hawken you are building the Griffith Hawken breech sold by the Hawken Shop requires very little fitting. Other than that small files and stones are required to fit the tang to to the breech .Very few if any of the available cast tangs will fit the breech without a good deal of file and try. Slow but the only way.

[45-110]

The standing breech mortice for the patent breech tang on my recent Dimick rifle build required most of the day to clean up using small die sinker chisels. Tedious work but eventually got a near perfect fit. Use black marker to direct your metal removal. Once the fit is good I epoxy the 2 pieces together and then inlet, a little heat later separates the two. I prefer expoxy over the soldering method, so much easier to clean up, also if you want to get the breech color cased the solder can be problematic. It is a shame that most of these castings need so much work in addition to bending, welding etc.
best kw

[redheart]

Thanks Bob, Bama, Sqrldog & KW for weighing in.

 However, I somehow didn't make myself understood.
 This is my second Hawken build and I did use the Griffith breech and had no such problems.
 For this build I need the slanted breech and the TOW RL-16-3 was the only one I could find.
 I realize that this one definitely needs fitting and I'm just searching for a technique to remove this extra metal from this tiny, deep & angled area of the tang.
 I'm thinking of trying my dremel and some bits I got from my dentist or some of those diamond grinding bits.
 Not sure I can control the tool without collateral damage. My eyesight isn't that good.
 I wanted to try a few more builds before my eyes loose all possibility of doing it.
 I'm not familiar with die sinker chisels but I guess I better get familiar with them.

[45-110]

Redheart
as I indicated, die sinker chisels or engravers to clean up your aarea of concern IE. "searching for a technique to remove this extra metal from this tiny, deep & angled area of the tang" a dremel wont do the corners.

[redheart]

Redheart
as I indicated, die sinker chisels or engravers to clean up your aarea of concern IE. "searching for a technique to remove this extra metal from this tiny, deep & angled area of the tang" a dremel wont do the corners.

45-110,

I thank you very kindly for the info, it looks like the only way.
I have a few gravers around here somewhere. I'll try them.

[Bob Roller]

I have a Griffith breech here and it is loose fitting.It belongs to a customer
that needs a bar in wood lock to be made for it. The two facing surfaces are very good
but it has a wiggle from an ill fitting hook to standing breech.This can easily be cured
by drilling a #33 hole thru it and threading it to 6x40 or 6x32 then put in a threaded
rod such as a screw minus the head and then file it with a safe edge file until the wiggle
is gone.Looking at the standing tang it appears to have a radius to catch the hook on
the breech but I can't think of any tool In my shop that will do that job.
Bill Large made some by making the face of the standing tang,fitted it to the breech
plug and then welded the tang on. I remember filing some of the welds to get it
to look OK. Now It tires me to think of it.

Bob Roller

[redheart]

I have a Griffith breech here and it is loose fitting.It belongs to a customer
that needs a bar in wood lock to be made for it. The two facing surfaces are very good
but it has a wiggle from an ill fitting hook to standing breech.This can easily be cured
by drilling a #33 hole thru it and threading it to 6x40 or 6x32 then put in a threaded
rod such as a screw minus the head and then file it with a safe edge file until the wiggle
is gone.Looking at the standing tang it appears to have a radius to catch the hook on
the breech but I can't think of any tool In my shop that will do that job.
Bill Large made some by making the face of the standing tang,fitted it to the breech
plug and then welded the tang on. I remember filing some of the welds to get it
to look OK. Now It tires me to think of it.

Bob Roller

Wow Bob!!! You have really been through $#*! with these breeches through the years.
I feel your pain!

[Bob Roller]

Redheart,

No pain involved. It was a learning experience and in a shop that had more
than enough equipment to work with.I have looked at these breech plugs
and other that the one I mentioned by Rod England I wouldn't want any of
the others.Mediocre tooling and foundries that aren't oriented to quality
control are a problem in an almost non existant market.
The Art Resell owned Hawken Shop had all breech plugs X rayed and coded
and any defects,real or imagined were sent back for remelt.Art said a
litigious society would have a field day with only ONE failure with injuries.
Bill Large used Hawken Shop plugs when he found out from me,having seen
the quality control invested in these items.Special orders he made himself
and sometimes I would help with them.Cold weather entertainment for me
and still a learning experience.

Bob Roller

[Herb]

Redheart, most of the plugs I have worked with have to have that recess for the hook cleaned of burrs.  I use a Dremel with dental burrs, but it is a chore.   You just have to remove them, but a little over cutting of the corners is not a problem.  I smoke fit mine.   I also used a Hawken Shop plug recently, but it is vertical and not slant.  And they do not have 1 1/8" plugs.

[redheart]

Redheart, most of the plugs I have worked with have to have that recess for the hook cleaned of burrs.  I use a Dremel with dental burrs, but it is a chore.   You just have to remove them, but a little over cutting of the corners is not a problem.  I smoke fit mine.   I also used a Hawken Shop plug recently, but it is vertical and not slant.  And they do not have 1 1/8" plugs.

Thanks very kindly Herb,
Somehow I knew that you'd be there with some great advice and support.
It helps to know that a little overcutting is ok because I don't think I can avoid it.

[redheart]

Redheart,

No pain involved. It was a learning experience and in a shop that had more
than enough equipment to work with.I have looked at these breech plugs
and other that the one I mentioned by Rod England I wouldn't want any of
the others.Mediocre tooling and foundries that aren't oriented to quality
control are a problem in an almost non existant market.
The Art Resell owned Hawken Shop had all breech plugs X rayed and coded
and any defects,real or imagined were sent back for remelt.Art said a
litigious society would have a field day with only ONE failure with injuries.
Bill Large used Hawken Shop plugs when he found out from me,having seen
the quality control invested in these items.Special orders he made himself
and sometimes I would help with them.Cold weather entertainment for me
and still a learning experience.

Bob Roller

Thanks Bob for the great info.
I love hearing about the things you pioneers have done to keep the Hawken alive.
It's a shame that the Hawken shop won't sell their slanted breeches.
It seems like they guard them with their lives and will only sell them with their complete kits.

[crankshaft]

  BTW..what was the reason for the slanted breech ?   vs the square one ? ?

[redheart]

  BTW..what was the reason for the slanted breech ?   vs the square one ? ?

I've read somewhere that it made the fitting of the breech to the tang easier, but I honestly can't tell you how.
There are some engineers and other very intelligent people on this forum that probably know.
 I hope they weigh in because I'd also love to know the answer to that one.

[Bob Roller]

  BTW..what was the reason for the slanted breech ?   vs the square one ? ?

SUPPOSED to be easier to fit.Never saw one on an English rifle and on
their rifles a tight fit was mandatory because if there was any wiggle
of the barrel it would negate the benefit of the finely calibrated tang sight
mounted on the match rifles.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Redheart,

No pain involved. It was a learning experience and in a shop that had more
than enough equipment to work with.I have looked at these breech plugs
and other that the one I mentioned by Rod England I wouldn't want any of
the others.Mediocre tooling and foundries that aren't oriented to quality
control are a problem in an almost non existant market.
The Art Resell owned Hawken Shop had all breech plugs X rayed and coded
and any defects,real or imagined were sent back for remelt.Art said a
litigious society would have a field day with only ONE failure with injuries.
Bill Large used Hawken Shop plugs when he found out from me,having seen
the quality control invested in these items.Special orders he made himself
and sometimes I would help with them.Cold weather entertainment for me
and still a learning experience.

Bob Roller

Thanks Bob for the great info.
I love hearing about the things you pioneers have done to keep the Hawken alive.
It's a shame that the Hawken shop won't sell their slanted breeches.
It seems like they guard them with their lives and will only sell them with their complete kits.

Redheart,
I didn't know they were a more or less a captive market thing.It SOUNDS like they
may be using Art's inventory from the 1970's when the X ray inspection was the
one safety valve in the whole operation.The only contact I have had with the
Washington State Hawken Shop was when I bought two hammers for locks I
was making and the customer requested them.That was at least two years ago.

Bob Roller

[redheart]

Redheart,
I didn't know they were a more or less a captive market thing.It SOUNDS like they
may be using Art's inventory from the 1970's when the X ray inspection was the
one safety valve in the whole operation.The only contact I have had with the
Washington State Hawken Shop was when I bought two hammers for locks I
was making and the customer requested them.That was at least two years ago.

Bob Roller
[/quote]

Thanks Bob,
I think you're dead on with the captive market thing

[redheart]

  BTW..what was the reason for the slanted breech ?   vs the square one ? ?

SUPPOSED to be easier to fit.Never saw one on an English rifle and on
their rifles a tight fit was mandatory because if there was any wiggle
of the barrel it would negate the benefit of the finely calibrated tang sight
mounted on the match rifles.

Bob Roller

Wowie Bob,
That really adds to the mystery.

[rich pierce]

I’ve heard that on a slanted breech there is no tendency for the breech of the barrel to dig in to the bottom of the barrel inlet when levered upward to remove the barrel.

[redheart]

I’ve heard that on a slanted breech there is no tendency for the breech of the barrel to dig in to the bottom of the barrel inlet when levered upward to remove the barrel.

Rich,
That sounds like as good a reason as any.
I can't check out that theory or fact just yet because I don't have a slanty fitted up to a rifle just now.

[mountainman70]

Hey Red,are you looking for a slanty breech? Dave

[redheart]

Dave,
Yes, which manufacturer is it?
Personal message sent.

[mountainman70]

I have 2 complete with tang. For 1 inch  barrel. Measures to 1 1/16. I think 3/4 16.have a goodun Dave