Bore wear

[hanshi]

For decades I've read everything about muzzleloaders that came my way.  Many of the "experts" claim a muzzleloader barrel wears out from 1000 to 2000 shots and that even going to thicker patches & larger balls doesn't completely solve the problem.  I've fired a lot of prb and just don't see it!  Black powder generates less heat, pressure and friction than modern rifles and modern rifle barrels normally last much longer than that.  And I'm talking original accuracy not just "that'll do" accuracy.

I'd like to hear some thoughts on the subject from fellow forum members.

[Harnic]

I have seen the crown area worn right away by sloppy, unprotected wood ramrod use, but I feel the same as Flintr that it would !@*%&@ difficult to shoot out a barrel.  My wood ramrod is for looks, I always use a stainless steel range rod with a brass muzzle guard for loading & cleaning.

[erdillonjr]

I agree with Harry. My wood ramrod is for looks also. I use a stainless loading rod with a muzzle protector. Have never shot out a barrel. Ed

[LynnC]

Roger and Daryl put more balls down range than most of us and could comment.

I know Roger has increased ball size a couple of times (left that one wide open Roger ) & ruffed up the bore when it was shot slick - I'm sure he can/will elaborate.....................Lynn

[david50]

i have a .32cal CVA Squirrel Rifle that i have been shooting for about 28 years now,i couldn't begin to guess how many balls i have put through it, it shoots as good as the day i got it.

someone please explain how a wooden ramrod could be detrimental to a barrel crown,especially compared to a metal one. i only use wood ramrods for hunting and shooting, i have a long steel rangerod i use for cleaning only.

[Harnic]

Hi David, a wood rod picks up dirt, grit, & powder fouling over time which are embedded in the surface like those flexible wood nail files the girls use.  A polished steel rod is harder than barrel steels used in muzzle loaders & stuff doesn't stick to it well, plus the muzzle guard prevents any contact between barrel & rod.  A lot of damage done by a wood rod is the users fault, not pushing the rod straight in, you've seen those jokers, jamming a rod in so hard it bends like a bow.  I had one fellow bring his rifle in to my shop years ago, mad as $#*! that he'd been sold a bad barrel.  His rod handling was obviously sloppy as $#*!!  There was the bore, most of which looked fine at the muzzle, but one side was worn so bad from the rod, it almost looked cross-eyed!

[Roger Fisher]

Yes, that Harnic feller is on the mark!!

If you try to be certain and are able to center that wood rod in the bore incl the muzzle you are an exception.  I only use a wood rod when I must i.e. primative woods walks where the super stainless rod is not allowed, then darn carefully. I also use a short starter with a guide. This Getz barrel has over 60,000 rounds thru her in fact quite a lot more (since 89.) I have rechampered the muzzle twice and polished it 3 or 4 times and she still shots center when I do my part....   I'm told that there is a 'standard' stainless steel and a super hard super smooth stainless steel. I have the latter.
A wood rod out of the pipes for a shot or two hunting no problem.  But suggest you dig out the smooth  stainless for cleaning.....

[david50]

Harnic, i can see where you are coming from but it sure seems like it would take a lot of shooting to have any affect,but some folks shoot much more than others. dont know if it makes any difference but every time i clean one of my rifles i oil and wipe down it's ramrod.

[Daryl]

I guess I'm one of the jokers - sometimes breaking a rod with inattention while loading - mostly talking to someone else and not watching. I usually watch what I  doing, though.
I see a potential problem with those noodle rods that more and more people show up with, the ones sold as being unbreakable - they touch the bore several times, scrubbing away as they seat a ball - even well down from the muzzle.  Same thing happens with too tight a patch or use of a brush with a .17 cal Dewey rod in the little bores, which is way to whippy for constant use.

Fellow over on Nitroexpress was showing his fiberglass rod - yeeeowch!. He uses a bore guide made from a bolt - complete with some of the threads still on it.  I'd not even think of doing this to a barrel.

The 14 bore has well over 4,000 rounds through it, still shooting sub 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Anyone who says a muzzleloader wears out a barrel in 2,000 rounds is just talking to hear himself - now, if said person was shooting slugs with heavy charges, pressure helps with wear, however even antique ctg. guns are still shooting slugs into sub 2' groups at 100 meters - go figure.

Round ball shoots as much as anyone and he's still shooting the same barrels.

Using a bare fiberglass rod for loading or cleaning, is like using a long fine tooth round metal file for loading ancd cleaning.  I used a fiberglass rod for a while with a .50 slug gun I had, only to have to re-crown every 200 shots. Every 3 or 4 times to the range, I'd have to cut off 1/8" to 1/4" and re-crown. The wear wsas very visible. I'd re-crown when the groups opened to 1 3/4" from 1" at 100 yards.  It was a very accurate barrel and I shoot irons back then, somewhat better than today. Hey - I could see!

[Harnic]

Roger must be one of Don Getz' best recommendations for his barrels!  Way to go Roger!  That's great performance!

David, the fellow I referred to above managed to bugger that barrel in well under a year... 6 months if memory serves me.  He didn't say how much he shot it, just wanted to blame me for making a poor barrel.  That argument didn't fly as I was shooting a barrel I'd made from the same steel that was 3 years older than his & it was still like new with hundreds, probably thousands of shots through it.

[roundball]

My volume of shooting doesn't come close to many I read about on these forums, but FWIW I can say that I have a good 3000-4000 shots through each of 3  Flintlocks and they still look like / shoot like new.

I use precut/prelubed patches lubed mostly with that stuff which doesn't seem to have a large following on this site...Natural Lube 1000... but it works fine for my shooting.

I always use muzzle protection with ramrods & rangerods...even while hunting...the jag in my pocket has a muzzleguide slid on it so its there when I reload after a shot...maybe overkill, but I'm fanatical about it

[Daryl]

I guess I don't take proper care when loading. I figure if I run out of room for a re-crown, I know a few places that sell new barrels.

[Mad Monk]

Those of you who go to the Gunmaker's Fair.  Sometime corner Chuck Dixon and ask him if he has ever seen any barrels shot out in 1500 to 2000 rounds.

Or stop at the NMLRA booth and talk to Jim Fulmer about his experience with one of his target rifles that lost it's "gilt edge" accuracy in about 2000 rounds.

There are a number of factors in this.

The idea is that old time gunsmiths did a lot of freshing out of the bores in the old dead soft wrought iron barrels but that this cannot hapen with modern steels.  The idea being that there is little difference in modern steel barrels from one barrel maker to the next.  That is simply not true.

When a shooter turned a barrel into to Dixon they would be handed off to me.  I would then use a hand hacksaw to cut the barrel in half from the crown on down through the breech plug.  The differences in sound created during the sawing was a good indication of how hard the barrel steel was.

E. Ogre

[Daryl]

Monk - will you be at Dixons?

[Mad Monk]

Monk - will you be at Dixons?

I am debating on that.  My wife will be working in the store for all three days.

Friday is boring for me.  Saturday gets a bit crowded and crazy.  So I think I will get up there early on Sunday.

E. Ogre

[LynnC]

Sorry - Didn't mean to slight Round Ball.
 
He puts way many more down range than I can get time to

So many of you folks get out there shootin - Wish I could get there with ya more often..............Lynn

[George F.]

Interesting thread here. Taylor did a test about 6-12 months ago about ramrods. Wood, stainless, brass. I don't remember which was the most abrasive, but the brass was the least. Now I'm thinking the stainless was the most. I'm guessing the stainless is harder than the barrel. The wood is the softest, however dirt was easily picked up on the wooden rod and abraided the muzzle. The brass, being softer than both the barrel, and the stainless rod.  ...Geo.

[Roger Fisher]

Interesting thread here. Taylor did a test about 6-12 months ago about ramrods. Wood, stainless, brass. I don't remember which was the most abrasive, but the brass was the least. Now I'm thinking the stainless was the most. I'm guessing the stainless is harder than the barrel. The wood is the softest, however dirt was easily picked up on the wooden rod and abraided the muzzle. The brass, being softer than both the barrel, and the stainless rod.  ...Geo.

Bevel bros did it/!

[hanshi]

Quite a lot of worthwhile information here.  The logic of a shot-out barrel from prb never made sense to me.  The writer(s) names who came up with this would probably be familiar to some.  In one case accuracy (allegedly) went south after 1000 rounds of prb and the writer had to go to a larger ball.  The ball & patches kept getting larger and thicker till around 2000 rounds the barrel was ruined.  The crown, apparently, was fine.  Another wrote that ml barrels firing prb simply did not have the accuracy life of modern high pressure centerfire rifles!  Inlines, as I recall, weren't mentioned but the implication was they live forever.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this as hogwash.

I, too, use muzzle guards on metal range & cleaning rods.  I picked up the idea somehow and started using guards on short starters.   Carrying a muzzle protector to use with the hunting rod is something I'd never considered.  

[roundball]

"...I picked up the idea somehow and started using guards on short starters..."

Same here

Carrying a muzzle protector to use with the hunting rod is something I'd never considered.  

Years ago, Birddog6 put me onto "nylon" muzzleguides carried by Muzzleloader Builders Supply...they weigh nothing and are 100% quiet...ideal for use on a jag in my pocket while hunting.

[ottawa]

using the fiberglass rod as mentioned earlier is right about the wearing out the barrel i used one in my first ML didn't know better and fig it had to be better than a wood one look at my ML now you would think that i have a smooth rifle the first 1in to 1 1/2 is smooth no visible sign of rifleling luckily the rest of the barrel is still very good thought i would have to have it refreshed or rerifiled .infact that's what got me on this forum in the first place so i Guss i lucked out twice

[omark]

ottowa, instead of freshening the barrel, you might want to cut the barrel off a little or coning the muzzle. should get your accuracy back without a lot of expense.     mark

[ottawa]

thats the funny thing it shoots better now with the wore out muzzle then it did befor must of did like a crude conning job on it loads easy and shoots straigter now when my son desides whewn hes ready to shoot it we will polish up the mzzle to be smooth and shinny cant hurt and good practice for him

[Canute Rex]

The guy who owned my rifle before me decided that it was too light in the nose. He copied the wooden ramrod in brass. Now it requires a bit of stamina to hold up, but it feels solid.

The other upside, in relation to this thread, is that I have a low abrasion brass ramrod (with jag) that actually fits under the barrel.

Canute

[hanshi]

The guy who owned my rifle before me decided that it was too light in the nose. He copied the wooden ramrod in brass. Now it requires a bit of stamina to hold up, but it feels solid.

The other upside, in relation to this thread, is that I have a low abrasion brass ramrod (with jag) that actually fits under the barrel.

Canute

I think we can all agree that ramrods can cause muzzle damage and reasonable care should be taken with their use.  My original question, though, was concerning the claim of certain "experts" that a roundball rifle barrel is "shot out" after 1000 to 2000 (max) rounds of prb.  My stated position is that this is hogwash and that a quality barrel will take many tens of times that amount of shooting to "shoot out".  Even after reading the few posts on this thread I'm almost ready to declare this myth "busted".  Still would like to know where they came up with this garbage.