Vinegaroon experiment

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

James, that is good news.  It is difficult to get the stain of Ferric Nitrate off wood even with steel wool.  And time just makes it darker.

[James Rogers]

Yep, a chemical reaction as opposed to a dye. It can be quite harsh on junk tandy type veg tan though.

[LRB]

  James, Tandy leather is all I ever use, because I can buy it local and hand pick. I've never had a problem with any of it, and I buy their economy pieces. I don't buy their high grade. I did buy a piece once that smelled like week old death. It stunk up my whole shop. When I brought it home from the store, My wife gave me two minutes to get it out of the house, but it was a great piece to work with, and the finished products did not have the smell.

[James Rogers]

Wick,
I know a few that have had luck with Tandy. I haven't.  Hand picking was always involved in the success stories. The pieces I tried cracked and reacted badly to the vinegroon. The same batch on other tannages did not have that effect. 

[longcruise]

I  have no problem with the tandy leather but I too hand pick it.

My last jug of vinegaroon was made with  Heinz "Cleaner" vinegar.   All the  vinegar on the shelf was 4% or 5% acidic except the  Heinz stuff was 6%.

[Stophel]

almost every time I have ever tried it on leather, the leather would turn some shade of blue, and while it seemed to be ok for a while, give it a few weeks (or less) and it would turn the leather into tissue paper.  Only once did I get it to turn something close to black (on a noticeably nicer piece of leather with a darker color and firmer hand), and it lasted longer before it started cracking.  I've never had any real oak tanned leather (it's way too expensive for me), but supposedly it works well with it.  I gave up trying long ago.     I am told that most "vegetable tanning" is done now with mimosa.

[Marcruger]

I have to agree with James on Tandy. I got two hides in a row, handpicked by myself in the store, which turned out bad. One tooled like a rubber tire, and rejected dye. The most recent one dyed fine, but the dye would leach back out and never cure/dry/harden. Never again will I buy leather there.

Again I ask, why vinegaroon acid on leather when we have quality dyes? Would you take your nice leather coat, belt or shoes and rub them with acid? I am betting many original pouches bit the dust due to acid eating the leather and stitching.

Your products, your materials, your time. I will stick with modern dyes on leather.

God bless, Marc

[longcruise]

Stophel and Mark, I have not had that type of experience with Tandy or with the use of Vinegaroon. 

FWIW, just about any application of any dye to veg tanned leather will result in the leather becoming stiffer.  It will also happen if the leather is wetted such as in preparing a bag to be turned.  The leather needs to be returned to it's pliable state with neats foot oil or some other leather dressing.

When you make your vinegaroon you need to use enough iron to totally neutralize the acid in the vinegar.  It takes a while to make it and even after a long period of time it may not be "done" if enough iron has not been added to the venegar to complete the reaction.  When all the metal has been devoured it may not be ready.  The way to be sure is to add more metal and also check it occasionaly to see if there is pressure in the container.  Use the plastic container that you bought the vinegar in and cap it after adding the metal.  Everything you read on the interweb will tell you not to close it tight but if you close it tight and check it about once a week by loosening the cap you will know when it is ready.  If you open it and there is an escape of gas from the container, it is not done making itself.  If there is no escaping gas it may be done but if the metal is all gone you may need to add more metal and check for gas in another week.

If you are in a hurry, Fiebings UMC Black will give you a fine black color.

I found out by experience about what I explained above.  I used a quart bottle of white vinegar to make a batch by putting some 0000 steel wool in the bottle.  When all the steel wool was eaten I tried it on a test piece of leather.  Got a gray blue color.

I poured some shavings from a brake rotor drum turning machine into it and left it for a couple more weeks.  Checking it during that time there was a pressure build up so I knew it was working.  At the end of just over two weeks it stopped building pressure and there was still metal residue in the bottom of the bottle.

At that point I used it to dye the bag below.  The bag os not braggin work, just plain a bag to serve in everyday use.

[Mike Lyons]

I did the experiment to see how apple cider and regular distilled vinegar stained maple. I never meant for the thread to morph into a debate on using it on leather. 

[flinchrocket]

https://image.ibb.co/e8yBdb/image.jpg
 I used cider vinegar on this. I don't think the type of vinegar makes any difference but the type of iron will,this also has a coat of homemade walnut stain to darken up the stripes.

[Arcturus]

I agree with longcruise that vinegaroon, like aqua fortis reagent, should be neutral, not acidic if the reaction was carried out properly until no more iron can dissolve in the acid.  Then it doesn't need to be neutralized, because it isn't acidic anymore.  It really shouldn't eat leather.  I always wash in water, and then oil and wax any leather I've dyed with it and so far not experienced the deterioration some others have.  And I have had cheap veg tan from Tandy crack when using Fieblings, and not oiling and finishing well... any dye adds material within the leather that will harden it.

The small pieces of wood I've used it on usually get the right shade of brown I'm looking for, sometimes not...like aqua fortis it's very dependent on the piece of wood.  I've used it to darken carved wooden spouts for bullet bags, wooden plugs for powder horns, etc.

[thecapgunkid]

D. Taylor...I have a question for those who have used vinegaroon to dye leather black...is it colour fast?  In other words, if I dyed a sword baldric black, and wore a white shirt under it, would I be in trouble?

Never had trouble like that but I've always used it on veg tan.  It's best feature seems to be; no matter how you glop it on, it always level;s into an even coat.  I've never had it any darker than charcoal grey, but finish adds darkness.

[LRB]

Vinegaroon is color fast, and does not rub off on clothing, once well dried and buff wiped with a cloth. As mentioned, it is not a dye. The black is from a chemical reaction to the tannins in the leather. A heavy dose of strong tea before application will assist the reaction by adding more tannins. Also, be it known, you cannot get results from chrome tanned leather, or alum tanned, because there are no tannins in either. Only bark, oak tanned or what we call vegetan, which is still from a tannin bearing wood will react.